Re: Once again Faith shows she does not believe what the Bible actaully says.
Phat writes:
Your example is unclear. Abraham knew the Lord.
Actually Phat, the story is very clear. Where in the story is there any evidence that Abe was not questioning God's behavior and judging God's behavior?
Once again, you are inserting the God made in YOUR image into the story to replace the God described by the author.
I understand you have problems seeing God through the eyes of the author BUT reality is that the author had no issue with an unjust, despotic, even immoral God.
Abe is humble before someone who has the power to simply kill him if that character so decides just like any war lord or king or prince of the period.
Re: Once again Faith shows she does not believe what the Bible actaully says.
quote:Your example is unclear. Abraham knew the Lord. God was not simply some character on a scroll. And the U.N. is full of many different relative beliefs, including atheism.
The UN did not judge God, that was just one of Faith’s deceptions (and you fell for it).
The UN simply came up with a definition of genocide that Faith doesn’t like. As if her opinion mattered. She routinely attacks experts who dare come to conclusions she doesn’t like - again with no regard for the truth.
The issue is not respect for God - the issue is deference to Faith. And I do not think that the UN should be in any fear of God’s judgement over that.
Judgment is just punishment, murder is unjust killing.
Genocide means murder, it means UNJUST killing, I don't care who came up with the definition. God doesn't commit murder, He brings about judgment for sin. Therefore the attempt to define what God does in the terms given by the UN is upside down and backwards. It's similar to how people these days may protest the just execution of criminals as if THAT was murder instead of justice. People just don't know how to think any more.
Re: Judgment is just punishment, murder is unjust killing.
Faith writes:
People just don't know how to think any more.
People don't know how to think like a mad mediaeval pope, that's true. (Well most of us anyway.)
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Re: Judgment is just punishment, murder is unjust killing.
Oh dear oh dear, mad medieval pope? But you do think like that if you actually think God's judgments are murder. Crazy as a medieval pope. Enlightened reason gone gone gone.
Re: Judgment is just punishment, murder is unjust killing.
Faith writes:
But you do think like that if you actually think God's judgments are murder.
Absolutely. Almost all of the examples found in the Bible are murder. But wait...there's more. In the Exodus fable it is not simply murder but premeditated murder with malice of forethought.
Once again, you are inserting the God made in YOUR image into the story to replace the God described by the author.
To start with, lets determine the "author".
Wiki writes:
Tradition credits Moses as the author of Genesis, as well as the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and most of Deuteronomy, but modern scholars increasingly see them as a product of the 6th and 5th centuries BC.
These critically thinking unbiased modern scholars do a terrible disservice by essentially allowing human wisdom to define and frame the bible apart from the traditional method of believing that God spoke through the original authors. God has been "stripped" of His power and authority by a bunch of human ants who don't even realize that they are being manipulated in the current and ongoing spiritual war.
You of course will tell me I am being dogmatic and claim that the "evidence" shows us that we are most certainly not in a global assault on old ideas.(war)
The Bible itself challenges your "evidence".
Zondervan Academic writes:
With this in mind, we turn now to references to the book of the law of Moses or the book of Moses (with variants) found in biblical books that follow the Pentateuch.
Here are just a few examples:
Joshua 1:7-8a Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. Keep this Book of the Law always on your lips . . .(...) In the New Testament, when quoting the Pentateuch, people often spoke of Moses being the author. For example, the disciples, referring to Deuteronomy 24:1—4, questioned Jesus, ‘Why then,’ they asked, ‘did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?’ (Matthew 19:7).
Jewish leaders asked Jesus a question based on Deuteronomy 25:5—10 by saying, ‘Teacher,’ they said, ‘Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him’ (Matthew 22:24).
Jesus himself, quoting the fifth commandment (Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:16) and a case law (Exodus 21:17; Leviticus 20:9), said, For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death (Mark 7:10). For other New Testament references see Mark 12:26; John 1:17, 5:46, 7:23.
In light of the references to Moses’ writing in the Pentateuch and the New Testament citations of the Pentateuch that associate Moses with its composition, it seems reasonable to affirm that the origins of the Pentateuch are connected to this great biblical figure.
2 Chronicles 25:4 Yet he did not put their children to death, but acted in accordance with what is written in the Law, in the Book of Moses, where the Lord commanded . . .
Nehemiah 13:1 On that day the Book of Moses was read aloud in the hearing of the people . . .
These references to the Book or Law of Moses are not necessarily, and until the postexilic period are unlikely, indicating the Pentateuch in its final form as we know it, but still they attest to some body of writing that was connected to the figure of Moses.
Once you start examining the Bible from a human centrist perspective, the inerrancy wears off and the book is exposed as written by fallible humans and even a fallible God character.
Moses and Abraham both knew God. Modern Scholars have twisted it to "prove" that nobody can really know God nor Jesus and that the books have value only in the context of humanist teaching on how to live.
Quite frankly I won't fall for it.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
All of the evidence shows that there was no single author of Genesis.
It really is that simple Phat.
No one has a clue who the authors actually were but we can know a few things for sure; for example that the author or recorder of Genesis 1 lived far after the authors or recorders of the rest of Genesis.
The critical thinking unbiased writers do not allow human wisdom to define and frame the Bible, rather they allow the actual text as well as verifiable evidence to define the Bible.
It's the Apologists who rely on not just "Human" wisdom but in reality their own biased beliefs to define and frame the Bible. They create God and Bible in their own image.
Phat writes:
Once you start examining the Bible from a human centrist perspective, the inerrancy wears off and the book is exposed as written by fallible humans and even a fallible God character.
Almost. Let me correct that for you.
Once you start examining the Bible based on what is actually written, on the actual history of the area and times when the stories were written and the reality of the processes that created the Canon(s), the inerrancy wears off and the Bible is exposed as written by fallible humans and that it even depicts a fallible and often horrific God character.
If the author was a Moses as you and tradition demand, then do you not think there would be some sort of historical record of him and the events he supposedly participated in. Provide some sort of evidence that Moses existed as a historical figure, then you can work on the evidence that he wrote Genesis.
The only Genesis that actually is worth listening to.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
quote:These critically thinking unbiased modern scholars do a terrible disservice by essentially allowing human wisdom to define and frame the bible apart from the traditional method of believing that God spoke through the original authors.
And why is knowing the truth bad?
quote:God has been "stripped" of His power and authority by a bunch of human ants who don't even realize that they are being manipulated in the current and ongoing spiritual war.
That doesn’t follow at all. It really makes no sense.
quote:The Bible itself challenges your "evidence".
But none of those are serious challenges. Moses doesn’t have to have written the books we have now for the laws to have come from him. The Jewish leaders could be wrong. The Book of Moses doesn’t have to be written by Moses any more than the Books of Job or Jonah or Esther were written by those persons.
quote:Once you start examining the Bible from a human centrist perspective, the inerrancy wears off and the book is exposed as written by fallible humans and even a fallible God character.
I don’t think that the Bible endorses the idolatrous worship of men. But Biblical inerrancy is a creation of men and a false one. Why should we twist the Bible to defend a falsehood invented by men?
quote:Moses and Abraham both knew God. Modern Scholars have twisted it to "prove" that nobody can really know God nor Jesus and that the books have value only in the context of humanist teaching on how to live.
Presumably you meant liberal theologians rather than modern scholars. But is their teaching really worse? I would think that that would be quite difficult, the more so since they put an emphasis on the teachings attributed to Jesus.
Once you start examining the Bible based on what is actually written, on the actual history of the area and times when the stories were written and the reality of the processes that created the Canon(s), the inerrancy wears off and the Bible is exposed as written by fallible humans and that it even depicts a fallible and often horrific God character.
OK. Having stated this, I am puzzled by your claim to being a believer. All that you could possibly believe in is an unknown God who is unlike anything described in any human literature and who likely does not prefer or cherish humans over any other universal species. What kind of believer is that? And what kind of God? Certainly not one relateable tp us.
Again, this supports my claim that you may as well claim to be a secular humanist and quit trying to plant your flag in both camps.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
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