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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Phat
Member
Posts: 13945
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 2416 of 2483 (869689)
01-03-2020 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 2414 by PaulK
01-03-2020 1:31 PM


Re: Who Wrote Genesis?
PaulK writes:

And why is knowing the truth bad?

The truth that you market is the "truth" compiled through human "evidence". The truth I seek to present is that of an eternally alive Jesus Christ, (Gods very human character) communing with humanity. Being an atheist, you support a human-created(or evolving) truth.

The whole point is to be able to commune with God.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2414 by PaulK, posted 01-03-2020 1:31 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2417 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2020 2:34 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16211
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 2417 of 2483 (869693)
01-04-2020 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 2416 by Phat
01-03-2020 10:42 PM


Re: Who Wrote Genesis?
quote:
The truth that you market is the "truth" compiled through human "evidence". The truth I seek to present is that of an eternally alive Jesus Christ, (Gods very human character) communing with humanity. Being an atheist, you support a human-created(or evolving) truth.

That’s the apologists point of view. Having decided on your “truth” the real truth does not matter. Where I endorse the best efforts of humans to discover the truth you reject them, setting yourself up as a false god. Hardly a Christian attitude.

quote:
The whole point is to be able to commune with God.

No, the whole point is to set yourself up as the determiner of truth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2416 by Phat, posted 01-03-2020 10:42 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32522
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 2418 of 2483 (869697)
01-04-2020 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 2415 by Phat
01-03-2020 10:37 PM


Re: Who Wrote Genesis?
Phat writes:

All that you could possibly believe in is an unknown God who is unlike anything described in any human literature and who likely does not prefer or cherish humans over any other universal species. What kind of believer is that? And what kind of God? Certainly not one relateable tp us.

It is a believer who believes that there really is or was a GOD who was the creator of all that is, seen and unseen.

Think Phat. Have you ever read the Bible? The God in Genesis 1 is such a critter, one who creates simply by will, who never hesitates, who is never unsure and who looks on all that was created and finds it all good BUT who also has absolutely no contact with the creation.

The idea is really not all that far fetched or unusual.

You what it seems to be preferred over everything else and so create a God in YOUR image.

I believe GOD exists but am honest enough to admit that all the evidence shows it is not any of the God(s) or god(s) described in any human literature. They are all just the creation of other humans.

And we still have no clue who wrote Genesis.

Phat writes:

Again, this supports my claim that you may as well claim to be a secular humanist and quit trying to plant your flag in both camps.

Yet the reality is that I am a member of a recognized Chapter of Club Christian. I am a Christian and thus also the theist and not secular. But remember Jesus was never a Christian but the writings show him as a humanist.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2415 by Phat, posted 01-03-2020 10:37 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18130
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2419 of 2483 (869703)
01-04-2020 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 2415 by Phat
01-03-2020 10:37 PM


Re: Who Wrote Genesis?
Phat writes:

All that you could possibly believe in is an unknown God who is unlike anything described in any human literature and who likely does not prefer or cherish humans over any other universal species. What kind of believer is that?


One who rejects all cults equally?

Phat writes:

And what kind of God?


A big one?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2415 by Phat, posted 01-03-2020 10:37 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2422 by Phat, posted 01-04-2020 4:51 PM ringo has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 506
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 2420 of 2483 (869705)
01-04-2020 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2373 by ringo
01-02-2020 10:39 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
On the other hand, the idea of a deity hasn't even got a veneer of logic. Even the ancients, who used the analogy of a blacksmith at a forge to imagine a supernatural entity whose hammer raised sparks that made the heat and light of a volcano must have known that the connection was more literary than literal when they invented Hephaestus. The "modern" concept of a creator deity who wasn't himself created, who somehow knows and commands everything but also allows free will, who punishes evil and rewards good, except everywhere we might be actually able to look for those rewards and punishments, who is praised for enabling the winning touchdown but not blamed for the blocked, losing field goal attempt, that idea doesn't even have a fig-leaf of rationality!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2373 by ringo, posted 01-02-2020 10:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2423 by Phat, posted 01-04-2020 4:54 PM Sarah Bellum has responded
 Message 2428 by ringo, posted 01-05-2020 1:05 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 506
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 2421 of 2483 (869706)
01-04-2020 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2369 by Faith
01-01-2020 3:31 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
On the contrary, it's only after the West watered down the fierce religious madness that gave us everything from the 30 Years War to brutal attacks on gays (How much would Alan Turing have accomplished if the morality police hadn't hounded him!) that the West made progress. Look elsewhere at the places in thrall to nutbucket ideologies from Mohammed to Marx to see what the West would be if Christianity weren't a (somewhat) tamed religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2369 by Faith, posted 01-01-2020 3:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2426 by Faith, posted 01-04-2020 8:46 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13945
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 2422 of 2483 (869707)
01-04-2020 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 2419 by ringo
01-04-2020 12:18 PM


Another Observation
Phat writes:

And what kind of God?


ringo writes:

A big one?

This is another error that I attribute (in general) to critical thinkers who fancy themselves logical and not prone to mythos or legend. You all want a BIG God, should One exist. When the whole point of the Trinity and that view is to make GOD personal rather than extremely huuuuge, (like "The Force" in Star Wars. ) PaulK doesn't get it. He claims that it's our job to define reality. jar doesn't get it. Rather than dare to believe in an illogical God(according to his own reasoning) he would rather paint a picture of a misguided religion full of hucksters trying to sell a product that is distastefully easy. Perhaps jars morality demanded that humans pay their own way rather than get a free pass. The other side maintains that a free pass is the only way for the human-animal to make it---a leap of faith as it is.

My POV is that God is knowable and approachable. Due entirely to His initiative.

Critics claim it is the God I want. Damn right it is. Some disinterested force hiding behind a galaxy somewhere is irrelevant to me. If He is the real God, may He smite me forever for daring to ignore Him.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2419 by ringo, posted 01-04-2020 12:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2429 by ringo, posted 01-05-2020 1:08 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13945
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 2423 of 2483 (869709)
01-04-2020 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2420 by Sarah Bellum
01-04-2020 4:04 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
The "modern" concept of a creator deity who wasn't himself created, who somehow knows and commands everything but also allows free will, who punishes evil and rewards good, except everywhere we might be actually able to look for those rewards and punishments, who is praised for enabling the winning touchdown but not blamed for the blocked, losing field goal attempt, that idea doesn't even have a fig-leaf of rationality!
It seems to me it is the human definitions and expectations that are illogical. A Deity by definition need not fit our terms of rationality.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2420 by Sarah Bellum, posted 01-04-2020 4:04 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2424 by jar, posted 01-04-2020 6:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 2425 by Sarah Bellum, posted 01-04-2020 7:36 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32522
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 2424 of 2483 (869711)
01-04-2020 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2423 by Phat
01-04-2020 4:54 PM


yet look at the Deity you create?
Phat writes:

A Deity by definition need not fit our terms of rationality.

Yet look at the deity you create, one that not just favors humans over other creation but favors you over other humans. One that is in communion with you even though you admit there is no way to really know that you are in communion with anything other than your own fears and desires.

True, the Deity you create does not fit any terms of reason, logic, rationality or reality but it does fit your own needs and desires.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2423 by Phat, posted 01-04-2020 4:54 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 506
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 2425 of 2483 (869712)
01-04-2020 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2423 by Phat
01-04-2020 4:54 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Possibly, but "human" terms of rationality are all we have to work with at the present.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2423 by Phat, posted 01-04-2020 4:54 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2426 of 2483 (869714)
01-04-2020 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 2421 by Sarah Bellum
01-04-2020 4:11 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
The way Christianity gets subsumed under the evil actions of its enemies makes conversation difficult.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2421 by Sarah Bellum, posted 01-04-2020 4:11 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2427 by Sarah Bellum, posted 01-05-2020 11:13 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 506
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 2427 of 2483 (869737)
01-05-2020 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 2426 by Faith
01-04-2020 8:46 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Compare the parts of the world where religion is zealous, such as Afghanistan or Syria or Northern Ireland to places like the United States or Japan or France (or indeed, almost all of the civilized "West"!). See the difference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2426 by Faith, posted 01-04-2020 8:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18130
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2428 of 2483 (869739)
01-05-2020 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2420 by Sarah Bellum
01-04-2020 4:04 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Sarah Bellum writes:

On the other hand, the idea of a deity hasn't even got a veneer of logic.


And yet you can't give a single example of a logical error.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2420 by Sarah Bellum, posted 01-04-2020 4:04 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2434 by Sarah Bellum, posted 01-08-2020 9:29 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18130
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2429 of 2483 (869740)
01-05-2020 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2422 by Phat
01-04-2020 4:51 PM


Re: Another Observation
Phat writes:

You all want a BIG God, should One exist. When the whole point of the Trinity and that view is to make GOD personal rather than extremely huuuuge, (like "The Force" in Star Wars. )


You're being dishonest. You yourself constantly refer to "the Creator of all that is". That is necessarily a big God.

Phat writes:

My POV is that God is knowable and approachable.


And yet your fruit doesn't show any sign of His presence.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2422 by Phat, posted 01-04-2020 4:51 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2430 by Phat, posted 01-05-2020 3:59 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13945
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 2430 of 2483 (869778)
01-05-2020 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 2429 by ringo
01-05-2020 1:08 PM


Moving To Faith & Belief Topic
I'm moving this argument out of the science-based topic. It resumes in another thread.

Message 309

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2429 by ringo, posted 01-05-2020 1:08 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 2431 by Theodoric, posted 01-07-2020 3:02 PM Phat has responded

  
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