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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 2611 of 2686 (881174)
08-18-2020 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2610 by ICANT
08-18-2020 10:26 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:

Existence has no progress and can not be measured.


The definition disagrees with you.

Edited by ringo, : Spilling.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2610 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2020 10:26 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2613 by ICANT, posted 08-19-2020 12:07 AM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 2612 of 2686 (881175)
08-18-2020 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2609 by ringo
08-18-2020 10:20 PM


Re: After We Die
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

I showed you where the science errors are.

There was light before water in Genesis 1:1.
There was sun and moon in Genesis 1:1.
In the generations of the day God created the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1. The plants was after the sun and moon.

You believe everything was created in chapter 1:2-31. Everything except a great fish Gen. 1:21, and mankind in the image and likeness of God Gen. 1:27 was created in Genesis 1:1 and the generations of that day lays out how.

I can't help it if you are like a lot of people I know. Their attitude is they know what they believe and don't want to be bothered with the facts.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2609 by ringo, posted 08-18-2020 10:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2614 by ringo, posted 08-19-2020 12:13 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 2613 of 2686 (881176)
08-19-2020 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 2611 by ringo
08-18-2020 10:30 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

The definition disagrees with you.

1. Webster the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues : DURATION Definition of TIME

2. Dictionary.com "the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another." Definition of time | Dictionary.com

3. The Free Dictionary " A nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future."time

4. Definition of Time – Exactly What Is Time? There are many definitions of time at this location.

5. University of Helsinki Before the Big Bang, there was no space or time.

"In the theory of relativity, the concept of time begins with the Big Bang the same way as parallels of latitude begin at the North Pole. You cannot go further north than the North Pole," says Kari Enqvist, Professor of Cosmology. What is time?

As you see you can find any and all kinds of definitions of time.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2611 by ringo, posted 08-18-2020 10:30 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2615 by ringo, posted 08-19-2020 12:21 PM ICANT has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 2614 of 2686 (881189)
08-19-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 2612 by ICANT
08-18-2020 11:05 PM


Re: After We Die
ICANT writes:

There was light before water in Genesis 1:1.


It doesn't say that.

ICANT writes:

There was sun and moon in Genesis 1:1.


It doesn't say that.

ICANT writes:

In the generations of the day God created the heavens and the earth in Genesis 1:1.


It doesn't say anything about generations. How can you have generations in one day?

ICANT writes:

The plants was after the sun and moon.


It doesn't say that.

ICANT writes:

You believe everything was created in chapter 1:2-31.


I don't believe any such thing but that's what the Bible says.

ICANT writes:

Everything except a great fish Gen. 1:21, and mankind in the image and likeness of God Gen. 1:27 was created in Genesis 1:1...


It doesn't say that.

ICANT writes:

... and the generations of that day lays out how.


There are no generations in a single day.

ICANT writes:

I can't help it if you are like a lot of people I know. Their attitude is they know what they believe and don't want to be bothered with the facts.


As I said, I don't believe a word of it - but it says what it says.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2612 by ICANT, posted 08-18-2020 11:05 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2619 by ICANT, posted 08-20-2020 3:55 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 2615 of 2686 (881190)
08-19-2020 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 2613 by ICANT
08-19-2020 12:07 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:

As you see you can find any and all kinds of definitions of time.


You only asked for one. The other ones that you cited pretty much agree with the one I cited and disagree with you.

ICANT writes:

5. University of Helsinki Before the Big Bang, there was no space or time.


It says there was no concept of time:
quote:
"In the theory of relativity, the concept of time begins with the Big Bang the same way as parallels of latitude begin at the North Pole. You cannot go further north than the North Pole," says Kari Enqvist, Professor of Cosmology.
Some religions have no concept of hell but that has no bearing on the existence of hell.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2613 by ICANT, posted 08-19-2020 12:07 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2616 by ICANT, posted 08-19-2020 3:43 PM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 2616 of 2686 (881204)
08-19-2020 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2615 by ringo
08-19-2020 12:21 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi ringo,

That probably due to the fact there was no man to come up with a concept of time.

ringo writes:

the concept of time begins with the Big Bang

That actualy says "the concept of time begins with the Big Bang."

The concept of time did not actually exist until after Genesis 1:1 was written giving us God's definition of a day, and then making the sun visible from earth so we had something to use to come up with the concept of time. You know the earth's rotation in relation to the sun.

God Bless,]


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2615 by ringo, posted 08-19-2020 12:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2617 by vimesey, posted 08-19-2020 3:54 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 2618 by ringo, posted 08-19-2020 8:50 PM ICANT has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1171
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 2617 of 2686 (881206)
08-19-2020 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2616 by ICANT
08-19-2020 3:43 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
That is a description of a really simplistic and unsophisticated perception of time by some human beings.

To understand time as it is (ie one of the dimensions of space time, which came into existence at the singularity), you need to be able to do the mathematics involved in relativistic physics - or at the very least, be able to appreciate the implications of that mathematics.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2616 by ICANT, posted 08-19-2020 3:43 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2620 by ICANT, posted 08-20-2020 4:27 PM vimesey has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 2618 of 2686 (881209)
08-19-2020 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2616 by ICANT
08-19-2020 3:43 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:

The concept of time did not actually exist until after Genesis 1:1 was written...


That isn't true. People had a concept of time long before Genesis was written.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2616 by ICANT, posted 08-19-2020 3:43 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2621 by ICANT, posted 08-20-2020 4:31 PM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 2619 of 2686 (881253)
08-20-2020 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2614 by ringo
08-19-2020 12:13 PM


Re: After We Die
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

It doesn't say that.

In Genesis 1:2 we have the first evening followed by a dark period that had closed the first light period with the following light period in Genesis 1:6 beginning of the second day.

I have never seen an evening that did not close a light period.

ringo writes:

It doesn't say that.

Are you saying the sun and moon are not part of the universe?

If they are part of the universe they were created when the heavens and the earth was created in Genesis 1:1.

ringo writes:

It doesn't say anything about generations. How can you have generations in one day?

quote:
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

The Hebrew towledah here is referring to the account/history/generations of the specific day in which he heavens and the earth began to exist. That history is recorded in the following verses.

There is no limit to the duration of the light period in which the heavens and the earth was created. It was just the light period that had existed from the beginning until the evening at Genesis 1:2.

ringo writes:

It doesn't say that.

The sun and moon are a part of the universe so they existed in the day the heavens and the earth was created. The same day God planted a garden.

ringo writes:

I don't believe any such thing but that's what the Bible says.

If you don't believe what it says why are you telling me what it says.

Lets see what it says.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The generations/history of the light period (day) in which God created the heavens and the earth begins in Genesis 2:4

Genesis 1:5 God declares day one.

At the beginning of the second day God did some work that separated the water in the heaven and the water that covered the earth. This division between the water on earth and the water above He called heaven. The following light period began the third day. verse 6-8 nothing was created.

In verse 9 God told the water to gather to one place and allow dry land to appear.
It did and God called the dry land earth and the water He called sea, not plural as translated.

quote:
verse 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Nothing created, or made. Earth brought forth grass, seed, fruit trees, yielding fruit after his kind. These fruit tree and grass was to come from the seed that was on the earth. Nothing was created, or made.

The grass and trees were produced after its kind from seed.

The third day ended with the light period of the fourth day.

The Fourth day.

quote:
1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Nothing created or made. But these lights are to help us have days, seasons, and years. They were to give light upon the earth.

So God did some work on two great lights. Notice they were not created, brought into existence.

אשה, translation made def do work with/on things
ברא, translation created def bring into existence

ringo writes:

It doesn't say that.

Genesis 1:21 ברא created brought into existence.

Genesis 1:27 ברא created brought into existence

ringo writes:

There are no generations in a single day.

That is what the text says in Genesis 2:4.

ringo writes:

As I said, I don't believe a word of it - but it says what it says.

Your unbelief is not my problem, it is yours.

It says what it means, and means what it says.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2614 by ringo, posted 08-19-2020 12:13 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2624 by ringo, posted 08-21-2020 12:53 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 2620 of 2686 (881255)
08-20-2020 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 2617 by vimesey
08-19-2020 3:54 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Vimesey,

vimesey writes:

That is a description of a really simplistic and unsophisticated perception of time by some human beings.

Actually I gave quite a few definitions of time.

Would you like to add yours?

vimesey writes:

To understand time as it is (ie one of the dimensions of space time,

What is time that you can measure?

Length, width, and height are dimensions. Everyone of those can be measured.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2617 by vimesey, posted 08-19-2020 3:54 PM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2622 by vimesey, posted 08-21-2020 6:51 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 2621 of 2686 (881256)
08-20-2020 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2618 by ringo
08-19-2020 8:50 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

That isn't true. People had a concept of time long before Genesis was written.

What was that concept based upon 3800 years ago?

God Bless,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2618 by ringo, posted 08-19-2020 8:50 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2625 by ringo, posted 08-21-2020 12:56 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1171
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 2622 of 2686 (881270)
08-21-2020 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 2620 by ICANT
08-20-2020 4:27 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
OK, if I’m going to be able to reply in a way which helps here, I need to know if you are aware that space and time are not separate, but are part of a single concept, being spacetime.

For example, are you aware that if you left Earth in a spaceship which (purely in spatial terms) could travel at speeds of a decent fraction of the speed of light, you could return to Earth younger than your kids ?


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2620 by ICANT, posted 08-20-2020 4:27 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2623 by ICANT, posted 08-21-2020 11:57 AM vimesey has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 2623 of 2686 (881275)
08-21-2020 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 2622 by vimesey
08-21-2020 6:51 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi vimesey,

vimesey writes:

OK, if I’m going to be able to reply in a way which helps here, I need to know if you are aware that space and time are not separate, but are part of a single concept, being spacetime.

I know that according to Hawking and others that is the concept put forth for the BBT.

But just because someone assumed that to be so does not make it a fact.

Do you have any evidence other than an assumption? If so I would be interested in reading it.

vimesey writes:

For example, are you aware that if you left Earth in a spaceship which (purely in spatial terms) could travel at speeds of a decent fraction of the speed of light, you could return to Earth younger than your kids ?

I know that assumptions have been made that say that is theoretically possible.

But no I am not aware that I could actually do that. At 81 years old I would like to take a trip that would reduce my age by about 50 years.

Has that experiment been tried yet?

Eternity is. If there are events in eternity they do not happen simultaneously the duration between those events is what is measured by time.

Therefore time is a concept created by mankind starting with the Egyptians to measure the duration between those events. That measurement is based on the revolution of the earth relative to the sun. The Jewish day was from the end of a light period followed by a period of darkness and the next light period the beginning of the next day. The ancient Egyptians were one of the first cultures to widely divide days into generally agreed-upon equal parts.

It would make no difference whether there is 12 hours, 24 hours, 48 hours, or even 96 hours in a day. But none of those numbers would change the length of duration between events in eternity, or the duration of the rotation of the earth relative to the sun. The numbers produced by our concept of time are for our benefit only.

So how do you measure time?

If it is the 4th dimension of the universe how do you measure it?


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2622 by vimesey, posted 08-21-2020 6:51 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2626 by vimesey, posted 08-21-2020 1:02 PM ICANT has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 2624 of 2686 (881280)
08-21-2020 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2619 by ICANT
08-20-2020 3:55 PM


Re: After We Die
ICANT writes:

I have never seen an evening that did not close a light period.


Well, you weren't there in Genesis 1.

If there was a "first day", then it had to start with either an evening or a morning. In case you haven't heard, the Jewish day always starts at sundown, so the first day COULD NOT close a light period.

ICANT writes:

Are you saying the sun and moon are not part of the universe?


I said they were not there on Day One.

ICANT writes:

If they are part of the universe they were created when the heavens and the earth was created in Genesis 1:1.


Nope. The Bible says explicitly that they were not created until Day Four.

ICANT writes:

The Hebrew....


There's no point in discussing Hebrew with you. You can't even read English. See above.

ICANT writes:

If you don't believe what it says why are you telling me what it says.


That's a silly question. I don't have to believe The Lord of the Rings is true to know what it says.

ICANT writes:

So God did some work on two great lights. Notice they were not created, brought into existence.


It says God MADE two great lights.

ICANT writes:

It says what it means, and means what it says.


And you don't know either what it says or what it means.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2619 by ICANT, posted 08-20-2020 3:55 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2629 by ICANT, posted 08-21-2020 5:09 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18753
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 2625 of 2686 (881281)
08-21-2020 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 2621 by ICANT
08-20-2020 4:31 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ICANT writes:

What was that concept based upon 3800 years ago?


Pretty much what it was 5000 years ago and 10000 years ago: days, months, years - the progress of events.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2621 by ICANT, posted 08-20-2020 4:31 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
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