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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
ringo
Member
Posts: 18809
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2641 of 2686 (881443)
08-24-2020 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 2639 by ICANT
08-24-2020 12:35 AM


Re: [qs=Re: After We Die
ICANT writes:

I don't think they spent 80 days and nights without God telling him what He wanted wrote down in a book.


It doesn't matter what you think - and there's no reason to think that that part of the story is accurate either.

ICANT writes:

What discrepancy?


The one we're talking about, the discrepancy between the usage of the word "day" in Genesis1 and Genesis 2.

ICANT writes:

If you made an appointment to meet somebody at 12:00 tomorrow, when would you show up at noon or midnight?


We'd have to decide on that when we made the appointment.

ICANT writes:

Evening is at 6 PM Morning is 6 AM even in the Jewish day and you can pack no more than 12 hours into that.


Nonsense. Evening and morning are not fixed times on the clock. The phrase refers to a 24-hour day.

ICANT writes:

So why are you insistent that created does exist in those verses.


The word "made" exists in verse 16.

ICANT writes:

ringo writes:

Day One is by definition the first day.


As I said the first day of what?

The first day of creation.

ICANT writes:

One and First are two differ words.


Which refer to the same thing.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2639 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2020 12:35 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2643 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2020 2:03 PM ringo has responded
 Message 2644 by Phat, posted 08-24-2020 4:05 PM ringo has responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8949
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 2642 of 2686 (881445)
08-24-2020 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 2640 by ICANT
08-24-2020 1:08 AM


Relativity
An atomic clock sitting at sea level and one sitting in Denver Colorado will not keep the same time unless the one in Denver is adjusted for the elevation of 5k+ feet.

Yes, and the amount is exactly calculated by general relativity.

But what is this time you are measuring? Are they calculations or something physical you can measure. You can't measure duration. You can only measure the duration between events. So how do you measure time?

I don't think I really know what time is other than 1 of the components of spacetime. It appears to be simply one of the dimensions of that 4 dimensional object.

People with a lot more smarts than I have has already done that. Or at least they have very different views.

No, they don't. But to discuss that you will have to name those smart folks and how they support their views. If you mean Sagnac his experiments were shown to be compatible with relativity over a century ago so that doesn't count.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2640 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2020 1:08 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2648 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2020 1:40 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6388
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 2643 of 2686 (881457)
08-24-2020 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 2641 by ringo
08-24-2020 10:01 AM


Re: [qs=Re: After We Die
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

It doesn't matter what you think - and there's no reason to think that that part of the story is accurate either.

Can you tell me where Moses would have obtained the information:
The life of the flesh is in the blood. Leviticus 17:11
Earth is round not flat. God sitteth upon the circle of the earth. Isaiah 40:22
Universe expanding. He stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: Isaiah 40.22
Single land mass at one time. Genesis 1:9
Land mass divided. Genesis 10:25
He gave us the definition of a day. Genesis 1:5
He set the sun and moon to help us have something to base the concept of time on. Genesis 1:14-18

Where did Moses get this information from to be able to write it down 2800 years ago?

ringo writes:

The one we're talking about, the discrepancy between the usage of the word "day" in Genesis1 and Genesis 2.

The only discrepancy that exists is one you created.

Genesis 1:5 God called the light day. The Hebrew יום is the word translated day.
Genesis 2:4 says it is the beginning of the history of the day God created the heavens and the earth. The Hebrew יום is the word translated day.

Had Moses wanted to say in the days of creation he would have used the Hebrew word ביםיו which he used in Genesis 10:25.

ringo writes:

Nonsense. Evening and morning are not fixed times on the clock. The phrase refers to a 24-hour day.

The Jews have used evening and morning two ways. sundown to sunup and 6 pm to 6 am. And if you use it from sundown to sunup where I live at sometime that is less than 9 1/2 hours.

The only way you can get 24 hours is to add the previous light period to that dark period.

ringo writes:

The word "made" exists in verse 16.

In Message 2632 you said:

quote:
Because it says explicitly that they were created on Day Four.

The text does not explicitly say created. Explicitly means in a clear and detailed manner, leaving no room for confusion or doubt.

Made is not creation, they are not the same. I gave you the definitions of each and you can't read them or understand them I don't know which.

ringo writes:

The first day of creation.

The Hebrew language is a little more specific and that is the reason used the phrase Day One in his writing as he was referring to the light period in which God created the heavens and the earth which only took place one time.

Surely Moses knew the difference in Cardinal and Ordinal numbers as he used the Hebrew Cardinal number for one in Genesis 1:5 and the Hebrew Ordinal for second in Genesis 1:8.

ringo writes:

Which refer to the same thing.

Maybe one and first are the same thing to you but in Biblical Hebrew they are two different things.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2641 by ringo, posted 08-24-2020 10:01 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2646 by ringo, posted 08-24-2020 8:50 PM ICANT has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14719
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2644 of 2686 (881458)
08-24-2020 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2641 by ringo
08-24-2020 10:01 AM


Re: [qs=Re: After We Die
ringo, to ICANT writes:

It doesn't matter what you think - and there's no reason to think that that part of the story is accurate either.

Dont you see how your thought process mirrors my quote exactly? I think and believe that a WHO created the universe and defines reality whereas you believe that a WHAT(Logic and evidence defined by humans) created all that is real and actual.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2641 by ringo, posted 08-24-2020 10:01 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2645 by jar, posted 08-24-2020 5:16 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 2647 by ringo, posted 08-24-2020 8:56 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33010
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2645 of 2686 (881466)
08-24-2020 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 2644 by Phat
08-24-2020 4:05 PM


Think Phat. Try it. You'll like it.
Phat writes:

I think and believe that a WHO created the universe and defines reality whereas you believe that a WHAT(Logic and evidence defined by humans) created all that is real and actual.

Think Phat. Please, stop and actually think before you post stuff this silly.

None of use think that Logic or evidence ever created anything.

Do you even have a clue what the words logic and evidence even mean?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2644 by Phat, posted 08-24-2020 4:05 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18809
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2646 of 2686 (881503)
08-24-2020 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2643 by ICANT
08-24-2020 2:03 PM


Re: [qs=Re: After We Die
ICANT writes:

Where did Moses get this information from to be able to write it down 2800 years ago?


First, a lot of that "information" is wrong.

ICANT writes:

Made is not creation, they are not the same.


Yes they are.

ICANT writes:

Maybe one and first are the same thing to you but in Biblical Hebrew they are two different things.


You know nothing about Biblical Hebrew. I'll stick with the translators.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2643 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2020 2:03 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2649 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2020 1:48 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18809
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2647 of 2686 (881506)
08-24-2020 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 2644 by Phat
08-24-2020 4:05 PM


Re: [qs=Re: After We Die
Phat writes:

Dont you see how your thought process mirrors my quote exactly?


No, I don't see any connection at all. You'll have to be more specific.

Phat writes:

I think and believe that a WHO created the universe and defines reality whereas you believe that a WHAT(Logic and evidence defined by humans) created all that is real and actual.


We usually use the word "who" for humans. An entity so far above us would more appropriately be called a "what". The difference is that my what exists.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2644 by Phat, posted 08-24-2020 4:05 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2651 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 8:34 AM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6388
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2648 of 2686 (881628)
08-26-2020 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 2642 by NosyNed
08-24-2020 11:11 AM


Re: Relativity
Hi Ned,

Ned writes:

Yes, and the amount is exactly calculated by general relativity.

And I thought the calculation's were made by a computer using information derived from the difference in elevation with the difference in the time's the clocks kept.

Ned writes:

I don't think I really know what time is other than 1 of the components of spacetime.

You can't see it, or feel it except you seem to get tired between events, like the light of day starting and the close of darkness.

But how do you know it is a component of what is called space time.

I know what space is. Its the place we can move through by displacing the atoms that occupy it.

I know what time is. It is the duration between events in eternity that is determined by the concept of time created by mankind for that purpose. In the beginning they used shadows cast by the sun, I think those clocks were called sun dial clocks. But we got smart and figured out how we built a time piece we call clocks and watches. Later it was discovered that you could excite some atoms and get them to fluctuate at the same speed. How to capture them and come up with an atomic clock. Notice all atoms do not fluctuate at the same speed. I thought it was amazing how they could excite them and then to capture those that were fluctuating at the same rate. But that is no more than a man made clock it is just a lot more accurate than mechanical clocks.

Ned writes:

It appears to be simply one of the dimensions of that 4 dimensional object.

Why is it necessary that time be a dimension? You can't measure time so how is it a dimension? You can measure height, width, and depth, but you can't measure time. If you can please explain it to me?

Ned writes:

No, they don't. But to discuss that you will have to name those smart folks and how they support their views.

Here is one examination of the facts you can read, for yourself.
http://www.conspiracyoflight.com/...cRel/TheSagnacEffect.pdf

I don't know if you remember my discussion of the light bouncing between two mirrors or not. In my discussion I used a train with a lazer beam pointed at the ground on the back of the train. There were mirrors in the middle of the tracks that triggered the lazer to fire as it passed over the mirror. The lazer fired and hit the mirror every time even though the train was traveling at 1/2 the speed of light. The beam hit the mirror and bounced vertical to the point it was fired from. Light goes in a straight line from the point emitted.

Ned writes:

If you mean Sagnac his experiments were shown to be compatible with relativity over a century ago so that doesn't count.

What experiment did that?

The Hafele and Keating experiment proved the Sagnac effect did occur.
Gps proves the Sagnac effect does occur and clocks have to be adjusted to compensate for the Sagnac effect as well as gravitational effect.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2642 by NosyNed, posted 08-24-2020 11:11 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2650 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 8:12 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6388
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2649 of 2686 (881629)
08-26-2020 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 2646 by ringo
08-24-2020 8:50 PM


Re: [qs=Re: After We Die
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

First, a lot of that "information" is wrong.

Be specific. What did I say that was wrong.

ringo writes:

Yes they are.

Maybe according to you but not according to the Hebrew language.

ringo writes:

You know nothing about Biblical Hebrew. I'll stick with the translators.

I put my pants on the same way they do, one leg at the time.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2646 by ringo, posted 08-24-2020 8:50 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2654 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 12:37 PM ICANT has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14719
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2650 of 2686 (881660)
08-27-2020 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 2648 by ICANT
08-26-2020 1:40 PM


Science vs Philosophy. Is there a common ground?
Greetings, Pastor. I was woken early this morning and felt that I had to comment on Genesis, the Bible, the origin of humans, and the reality of math before humanity as well as God before humanity. (Sometimes I wake up with weird thoughts and musings )
I noticed how you and our old member arachnophilia discussed and debated early Hebrew, notably in Message 37 and thereabouts. I am not a word for word Biblical literalist, but I do use common sense in speculation about the distant past. For example:

I do not believe that humans were created before animals. In fact, I tend to believe that there were early animals that resembled humans and that humans may well have came from these animals. Humans, in my mind, became humans when they reached a certain level of awareness. One would think that having a memory (apart from instinct) an ability to record information (through a book, a cave drawing, cuneiform, oral storytelling tradition, or the ability to talk to ourselves in our head and form memories) would differentiate a human with a name from an animal with no need to name itself or anything else. In my mind, the Bible contains many absolute truths.

  • God initially created everything.

    Do we really think that God literally created plants before the sun? Or does the method of ancient Hebrew lay it all out and then it gets assembled into words and meaning through the early writers? In other words, did the early writers of Genesis actually transcribe what Gods audible voice or mental impression told them to write, literally at that moment in time? Or were they more likely only impressed with the idea that I AM God and besides me there is no other? Did they (the early writers) then fill in the blanks of the story based on their own understanding? Do you get where I am coming from?

  • God related to chosen men and women yet not simply to every homo sapiens that waundered the planet. God was not created by human minds, yet it may well be true that God was understood through the attempts of humans to describe Him. God may well have been always the same Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who was in the beginning with GOD Creator of all seen and unseen. Does that make sense?

  • God created the entire universe.

    In this declaration, I affirm that I am a Cosmological Creationist. I am not a word for word Biblical Literalist but I will say that I am a thought for thought Biblical Literalist. God gave me a brain and a mind for a reason. So allow me to go off on a limb.

    People often have a problem with God being the uncaused first cause, yet they have no problem with math predating humanity or chemicals predating humanity. They may often ask "Who created God"? but they never ask Who created Math? They never ask Who created Chemicals? They never ask Who created Matter Initially? I just want to bring this up.

    Would math have any meaning if it could not be explained through the interaction of numbers? Would chemicals have any creative ability were they not defined and seperated based on the Elemental Table?

    So a question to all of us.
    Who separated light from dark? Absolute truth from Relative truth? The laws of math from a jumble of random speculation? The law of precise combination of cheemicals that produced elements? (well...you guys know what I am trying to say )

    For all practical purposes, what differentiates the beginning of the universe from the beginning of the earth? And what differentiates the beginning of the earth from the beginning of human awareness?

    And if humans can declare with confidence that math had numbers before human awareness and that chemicals had laws of combination and formation before human quantification of these laws, why is it so hard for us as humans to imagine a God who is eternal and who gave us the wisdom to define math and define the elemental table?


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 2648 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2020 1:40 PM ICANT has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14719
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 2651 of 2686 (881661)
    08-27-2020 8:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 2647 by ringo
    08-24-2020 8:56 PM


    WHO WHAT WHEN and WHERE
    ringo writes:

    We usually use the word "who" for humans. An entity so far above us would more appropriately be called a "what". The difference is that my what exists.

    Granted. The Creator of all seen and unseen would logically be called a WHAT were it not for the human Jesus Christ who scripture tells us was in the beginning with God. Thus, if "through Him all things were created" then it is appropriate to say WHO rather than WHAT.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2647 by ringo, posted 08-24-2020 8:56 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 2652 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 9:13 AM Phat has responded
     Message 2655 by ringo, posted 08-27-2020 12:42 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 33010
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 2652 of 2686 (881666)
    08-27-2020 9:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 2651 by Phat
    08-27-2020 8:34 AM


    Re: WHO WHAT WHEN and WHERE
    Phat, Phat, Phat.

    "Who" says that? "Scripture" doesn't say anything. Scripture is something created by some author.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2651 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 8:34 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 2653 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 9:33 AM jar has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14719
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 2653 of 2686 (881668)
    08-27-2020 9:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 2652 by jar
    08-27-2020 9:13 AM


    Re: WHO WHAT WHEN and WHERE
    This is one of your basic problems as a believer. You never hear anything that God says but (as you believe) only what you hear and read what men say that God said. Since you never hear from God directly, all that you have is an argument that we are charged to be good little secular humanists, do what Jesus commanded, and throw God away.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killosophy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2652 by jar, posted 08-27-2020 9:13 AM jar has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18809
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.9


    (1)
    Message 2654 of 2686 (881676)
    08-27-2020 12:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 2649 by ICANT
    08-26-2020 1:48 PM


    Re: [qs=Re: After We Die
    ICANT writes:

    ringo writes:

    First, a lot of that "information" is wrong.


    Be specific. What did I say that was wrong.

    I was referring to the "information" that you cited in Message 2643:
    The life of the flesh is in the blood. Leviticus 17:11

    Anybody can see that living things die if they lose too much blood.

    Earth is round not flat. God sitteth upon the circle of the earth. Isaiah 40:22

    A circle is flat.

    Universe expanding. He stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: Isaiah 40.22

    Curtains and tents don't expand. They unfold.

    Single land mass at one time. Genesis 1:9

    It doesn't say that. It says the WATER was in one place

    Land mass divided. Genesis 10:25

    That isn't about land masses. It's a just-so story about why people speak different languages.

    He gave us the definition of a day. Genesis 1:5

    He gave three different difinitions in Genesis 1-2.

    ICANT writes:

    Maybe according to you but not according to the Hebrew language.


    You know nothing about the Hebrew language.

    ICANT writes:

    ringo writes:

    I'll stick with the translators.


    I put my pants on the same way they do, one leg at the time.

    That doesn't give you any expertise in the Hebrew language

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2649 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2020 1:48 PM ICANT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 2659 by ICANT, posted 08-28-2020 3:44 PM ringo has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18809
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.9


    Message 2655 of 2686 (881677)
    08-27-2020 12:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 2651 by Phat
    08-27-2020 8:34 AM


    Re: WHO WHAT WHEN and WHERE
    Phat writes:

    The Creator of all seen and unseen would logically be called a WHAT were it not for the human Jesus Christ who scripture tells us was in the beginning with God.


    Scripture doesn't say that. Apologists do.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2651 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 8:34 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 2656 by Phat, posted 08-27-2020 3:21 PM ringo has responded

      
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