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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Raphael
Member
Posts: 171
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


(1)
Message 2746 of 2755 (885660)
04-21-2021 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2743 by AZPaul3
04-09-2021 6:28 PM


Re: You The Man
Apologies, I am right in the middle of final exam prep (among all the other life things) so pretty swamped on my end.

AZPaul3 writes:

Raphael, I am out to learn what moves a mind to the fantasy of religion. The more I hear from you the more I am convinced you are the kind of person I can ask. I hope this continues. Thank you.

I've really appreciated this conversation as well man! To be honest, I enjoy having friends who totally disagree with me . I'm not so arrogant to think I have all the answers. I love listening and learning the perspectives of others, and understanding why they have different views. We all have blind spots, even you (which I'm sure you would admit). How are we ever to learn anything if we only surround ourselves with/interact with people we agree with? Echo chambers help nobody imo.

In retrospect, EvC is probably a large reason for all that^. If it weren't for the OG's, guys like jar, Ringo, nwr, Stile, Taz, jon back in the day who knows what sort of close minded religious zealot I would be . I had the benefit of having my beliefs challenged and totally torn apart at a very early age, and I'm grateful for it.

What evidence gives you god?

Tbh man...your response has been on my mind this past week. I've thought through many different responses...because I don't want to just be one more person of faith who can't hang intellectually. Apologies if I appear as if I am "dodging" the question. It is frustrating to me as well, because, well, I am . It is intentional haha. I've already shared a part of the reason why, however I suppose I can elaborate.

Life is not all intellectualism. The ancient Hebrews taught that humans are whole beings. I believe this view, because I have seen it demonstrated throughout life. What this meant to them was humans are made up of flesh and bone yes (body), but also heart (לֵבָב), and soul (נֶפֶשׁ). To them, the "heart" was where both the intellectualism we associate with the "mind" dwelt, as well as the emotions/intentions. And then there is soul (נֶפֶשׁ). To the Hebrew mind, the soul was not the little floaty thing people breathe out when they die in the movies. That was a later (Greek) idea. To them, the soul was your whole life. נֶפֶשׁ, or "nephesh," a word that literally means "life/neck," is a way to describe the unity of all life. To the ancients, you didn't have a soul, you are a soul.

I am an intellectual, yes, a theologian, yes, amateur scholar I try to be, lol, I love this stuff. I mean, I was here debating with jar and ringo as a 14 year old LOL I'm a nerd for sources and authors and arguments and debates. But life is more than the mind. Life is more than intellectualism and logic. We are beings of the heart, beings that long for intimacy and connection and relationships and tribe, we seek to be known. And we are beings of the spiritual, often spiritualizing non-religious things without even realizing we are doing so. The American Radical Right spiritualizes Trump, for example (the Radical Left has their own sins lol). We intuitively make meaning out of life, because we intuitively sense there must be a meaning, even if we have no idea what it is. We build societies around spiritual ideas and operate as if they are actually true. The foundation of western democracy, the concept that humans have intrinsic worth and are given to them certain rights from a divine source - an idea not found in nature at all and rather absurd - is an example of this.

I'm rambling at this point. Sorry lol. I guess what I'm trying to get at is. I believe in, yes (the mind) but have also known and seen the risen Christ. I have my evidences for it. But, frankly, I reject this platform as the place to try and "convince" you of any part of it. EvC is great, I love it, but it is not a place where authentic "whole person" communication or connection happens. I learned that a long time ago lol. And frankly, at the end of the day, I would throw out any argument I thought would impress you for the chance that you, or my guy Phat, or jar, or even my arch-nemesis Ringo (lol) would know I just care about y'all as people, even people I have never met on the internet. Tbh, the person that I actually am, without all the intellectual bravado...I couldn't care less about proving my positions right and yours wrong. I just care about the wellbeing (physical, mental, and spiritual) of every new friend I meet.

So you don't believe like I do, ok, that doesn't change my responsibility to care for, listen to, and value you and your experience. That's what it means to be a Spiritual Care Professional, that's who I want to be, and that's the kind of wholistic communication this form of interaction bars us from having.

Anyway. In conclusion, I know I have evaded your question very thoroughly I do so because, as an intellectual person myself, I know firsthand, we often use intellect as a mask behind which we hide our true selves. So, for that reason, I will continue to give you a non-answer If you want to have an actual authentic conversation though, as I said before, I'd be interested in that! Hope this makes sense!

Much love bro,

- Raph

Edited by Raphael, : some cleanup!

Edited by Raphael, : Switched some formatting things


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2743 by AZPaul3, posted 04-09-2021 6:28 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2747 by AZPaul3, posted 04-22-2021 2:12 AM Raphael has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5987
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 2747 of 2755 (885666)
04-22-2021 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 2746 by Raphael
04-21-2021 7:11 PM


I have ice cream for you.
To the ancients, you didn't have a soul, you are a soul.

Now this is a more acceptable view than the usual modern version. All in line with what we know.

The human is a marvelous organism with brain operations unique from most other species. In the philosophy of mind I could not accept Descartes’ mind–body dualism and I reject, for the same reasons, the similar claim of a soul as a separate “substance” operating. To define “soul” as the more holistic and realistic treatment of body plus cognitive self, the whole self, is both parsimonious and quite elegant.

I hereby shamelessly steal this concept and adopt it as the sole definition of soul. Thank you, Oh Ancient Ones.

And we are beings of the spiritual, often spiritualizing non-religious things without even realizing we are doing so.

Spiritual in what sense?

Feeling in awe of the universe is spiritual. Seeing the Milky Way ablaze on a cold clear moonless night casting shadows in starlight is spiritual (this one does me no end of awe).

But, I’ll bet you have some other spiritual in mind. I would bet a small bowl, a minor teensy little bowl, of Häagen-Dazs chocolate ice cream. Sorry. That’s all the goodies my diet allows me these days.

We intuitively make meaning out of life, because we intuitively sense there must be a meaning, even if we have no idea what it is.

Then it is past time for us to wake up and realize that for us, as an organism evolved on this planet, there is no meaning, no purpose to life beyond that of a gnat trying to survive and procreate. If one insists there is purpose to life then this is it.

Any additional purpose or meaning advanced is emotionally derived from self, not from life, and is ephemeral. Which is fine as it helps us get by in this violent uncaring unconcerned universe. Fill your life with self-generated purpose. This universe sure isn't going to give you any.

So you don't believe like I do, ok, that doesn't change my responsibility to care for, listen to, and value you and your experience.

A good practicing Christian. Nice. Human. Or the way we should be ideally.

I submit to you that all, even atheists, have the same responsibility. Like original sin, all humans are charged with this responsibility just by virtue of being born. And this charge is placed upon us, ourselves, by us, ourselves.

A problem I see is that most of humanity can be insensitive to *others*, the out groups. All humanity cares greatly for family, community and brethren. Out groups, not so much.

Religion seems centered on the *us* group. Sharing our special knowledge and scripture that only we can know among us. Keeping the holy sites sacred and reserved for us. Special privileges reserved for us (some more than others). And only us get to be saved. Salvation is exclusive to us, only the believers of our specific creed.

A stronger case for human care, concern and help is that of humanism. Doesn’t matter what group you’re in, us, other or sideways. Unfortunately, that is also a human construct, like religion, and humans are just not ideal practitioners of even this secular creed. But, when it is practiced well such is all inclusive. There is no out group.

If you want to have an actual authentic conversation though, as I said before, I'd be interested in that!

That is the goal.

I believe in, yes (the mind) but have also known and seen the risen Christ. I have my evidences for it.

I would like to hear the form of this evidence. What does that entail? How did you verify this evidence was really giving you truth?

As far as timing goes, no apologies any more. Take as much as you need. This discussion, no matter how pleasant we may find it, is not worth screwing up your studies.

I think this is the second time you apologized for not responding in some nebulous un-imposed time frame. You do that again and I'm going to have to get upset. Never again apologize to me for living your life as you need.

Besides, I should be around a few more years anyway, maybe longer I hope, so we have the time.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2746 by Raphael, posted 04-21-2021 7:11 PM Raphael has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2748 by Phat, posted 04-24-2021 12:11 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 2748 of 2755 (885721)
04-24-2021 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2747 by AZPaul3
04-22-2021 2:12 AM


Re: I have ice cream for you.
A problem I see is that most of humanity can be insensitive to *others*, the out groups. All humanity cares greatly for family, community and brethren. Out groups, not so much.
This is a problem in some ways, but I can see why we do it.

If one group of people were free from COVID 19 and another group of people had the virus, the ones having the virus would be defined at that moment as the OUT Group. You don't want your IN Group (and especially the children) to get infected with cultural BS. All inclusiveness is a liberals wet dream.
Not that God doesn't support it. But there are conditions.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2747 by AZPaul3, posted 04-22-2021 2:12 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2749 by dwise1, posted 04-24-2021 2:37 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 2750 by AZPaul3, posted 04-24-2021 2:54 PM Phat has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 2749 of 2755 (885722)
04-24-2021 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2748 by Phat
04-24-2021 12:11 PM


Re: I have ice cream for you.
This is a problem in some ways, but I can see why we do it.

If one group of people were free from COVID 19 and another group of people had the virus, ...

No, that's not why. The reason why is from fear and mistrust of those who are different from us; IOW plain old xenophobia (fear of the foreign). Yet again, download and read Bob Altemeyer's The Authoritarians for free (as a PDF, for a nominal fee for e-book formats), and read it. It's an easy and entertaining read since he went out of his way to make accessible to non-psychologists and non-statistians the findings of four decades of his research, which are usually very heavily laden in statistical mathmatics.

Basically, what he found was that those who rated high on his right-wing authoritarian (RWA) index viewed the world as being binary: Us versus Them, our in-group having to protect itself and its very existence against the dangers that the out-group presents. BTW, Altemeyer wasn't just expressing his opinions, but rather his in his decades of psychological research he also studied what high and low RWAs tend to believe and how they think (he's a retired psych professor who was just coming up on retirement when he wrote that book in 2006; he has since co-authored a book about Trump with Watergate figure John Dean, Authoritarian Nightmare: Trump and His Followers).

One of the things that Altemeyer found is that high RWAs live every day in an almost constant state of heightened fear which lead to panicked and inappropriately strong reactions to minor events that pose no actual danger and which leads to hatred; ie, they frequently perceive danger where there is none. It has also been found that their amygdalae are larger and more active than in low-RWAs. The amygdala (we have two) is that part of the brain which plays a primary role in emotional responses such as fear, anxiety, and aggression. It is part of the limbic system which has been lumped into the "reptilian brain" just below it -- Wikipedia calls it the "paleomammalian cortex". Therefore the functions of the limbic system border on instinctual responses which have evolved.

BTW, low-RWAs can also respond with fear and hate, but those responses are to actual dangers and those feelings normally go away after the danger is past. What makes the current climate different is that those very real dangers not only haven't gone away yet, but the GQP keeps doubling down.

So as to your misapplied example of the need to quarantine infected populations during a pandemic, your objection raised an actual clear and present danger which requires emergency action while AZPaul3 was talking about normal, non-emergency times.

You don't want your IN Group (and especially the children) to get infected with cultural BS. All inclusiveness is a liberals wet dream.

Spoken like a high-RWA.

Xenophobia makes a lot of sense evolutionarily that the instinct for fearing outsiders has been deeply ingrained into the most basic structures of our brains by many millennia of human evolution as it worked to help guarantee the survival of small human tribes -- perhaps even more so when there were still human sub-species (eg, Neanderthals) around in which case the "they don't look like us" aspect of xenophobia would have come into play. Each of those small tribes were able to survive because outsiders from other tribes did usually pose a danger to them so it was appropriate to fear them -- though interestingly, since they needed to raid neighboring tribes for wives, that could also explain the exact opposite response, xenophilia, our attraction to foreign females while fearing and hating foreign men.

The problem is that we have outgrown the need for xenophobia, but we are still saddled with that ancient baggage which now poses a grave danger for society which is now very diversified. A quality which used to ensure our survival now will have the effect of destroying us.

When you have an ethnically monolithic society (eg, as in most central and northern European countries) where everybody in the country looks pretty much the same and all share the same culture and religion (somewhat the same), then when refugees and colonial populations arrive looking different and having different cultures (including different religions) that creates a huge cultural shock for that society. For decades, Europeans have basically been scratching and shaking their heads over how the US would keep having such problems trying to deal with diversity (both racial and religion -- remember our own Protestant persecution of the Catholics), but now they're having to go through the same thing and they cannot deal with it. Part of the motivation for the growth of European right-wing nationalist groups (outside of Russian funding) is their reaction to the presence of refugees.

When it was still on Netflix I watched the 2015 German movie, Er is wieder da ("He is Back", released with the English title, "Look Who's Back"), in which Hitler mysteriously reappears in 2011 Berlin. The director used the Borat model in which they traveled throughout Germany filming "Hitler" interacting with regular Germans. Over and over again those Germans complain to Hitler how their culture was being endangered by these foreign immigrants whom the government is giving everything. Even though that the 2016 US presidential campaign was only starting, the parallels between the mood in both countries were striking. BTW, I can't find that movie anywhere now. It had been on Netflix US but no longer. It doesn't come up on Roku Search. I even switched my unit's language to German to find German titles, but without luck. And ever since then Prime Video keeps coming up with German subtitles, though that has come in handy when I couldn't read the computer display on The Expanse.

Now, your appeal to having to quarantine the "OUT group" for an actual disease touches on a common anti-immigrant trope, which is that they are all diseased. Or else bring other "cultural and societal maladies" including crime and a foreign culture -- in the Sleepy Lagoon murder trial, a centerpiece of Zoot Suit, the prosecutor denounced the Hispanic defendants as having "Aztec blood" which made them naturally blood thirsty and driven to kill people by stabbing them (an actual part of the trial transcript). Even when that "foreign" population had been here since before we came and took the land from them (So Calif used to be part of Mexico). Our downtown had a sizeable Chinatown until we burned it down around 1910 in order to "control disease".

 
But didn't Jesus teach that we are all brothers? "Don't call unclean that which I have made clean"? The Good Samaritan in which a hated foreigner is the good guy in the story? Doesn't that go against xenophobia?

Sing a bit of that Christian song, "Jesus Loves the Little Children", to yourself:

quote:
Jesus loves the little children,
All the children of the world.
Red and yellow, black and white,
They are precious in his sight,
Jesus loves the little children of the world.

NOTE: some variant lyrics adds "brown"


So maybe inclusiveness was meant to be part of Christian belief since it was taught by Jesus, even though Christian doctrine has been constructed to oppose Jesus' teachings.

Edited by dwise1, : minor typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2748 by Phat, posted 04-24-2021 12:11 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5987
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 2750 of 2755 (885723)
04-24-2021 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2748 by Phat
04-24-2021 12:11 PM


Re: I have ice cream for you.
All inclusiveness is a liberals wet dream.

Not that God doesn't support it. But there are conditions.

Then fuck him and his conditions. Phat, your version of a god is such an evil ass.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2748 by Phat, posted 04-24-2021 12:11 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2751 by Phat, posted 04-24-2021 3:08 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 2751 of 2755 (885724)
04-24-2021 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2750 by AZPaul3
04-24-2021 2:54 PM


Re: I have ice cream for you.
i dont understand your reasoning. But then, you dont believe mine. so we are at an impasse. Inclusiveness is akin to anarchy in my world. What is it in yours?

If the universe were only humans plus a myriad of other strange life forms, how would it be any safer than being in communion?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2750 by AZPaul3, posted 04-24-2021 2:54 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2752 by jar, posted 04-24-2021 3:36 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 2753 by AZPaul3, posted 04-24-2021 3:36 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 2754 by dwise1, posted 04-24-2021 4:01 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33412
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 2752 of 2755 (885726)
04-24-2021 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2751 by Phat
04-24-2021 3:08 PM


Re: I have ice cream for you.
Phat writes:

If the universe were only humans plus a myriad of other strange life forms, how would it be any safer than being in communion?

LOL

What the hell does "being in communion" even mean?

You keep using words Phat but I don't think any of them mean what you think they mean.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2751 by Phat, posted 04-24-2021 3:08 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5987
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 2753 of 2755 (885727)
04-24-2021 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2751 by Phat
04-24-2021 3:08 PM


Re: I have ice cream for you.
What is it in yours?

Humanism. What is it with religion and exclusivity? Why try to exclude some from their humanity?

If the universe were only humans plus a myriad of other strange life forms, how would it be any safer than being in communion?

Well, Phat, I find it obvious in my world that real is safer than fantasy.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2751 by Phat, posted 04-24-2021 3:08 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 2754 of 2755 (885728)
04-24-2021 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 2751 by Phat
04-24-2021 3:08 PM


Re: I have ice cream for you.
Inclusiveness is akin to anarchy in my world. What is it in yours?

In our world (AKA "the real world") inclusiveness is vitally necessary to keep our society from tearing itself apart.

Think of the armed services. Each branch has its own culture, its own part of the Mission, and its own way of operating towards completing the Mission. Because of having their own cultures and histories and differences in which they operate, there is some friction between the branches, AKA "rivalries" (eg, there was fierce in-fighting after Sputnik over which branch's rocket program would be the first to launch a US satellite). The Mission requires that we not only work together but also that we learn to coordinate our operations very closely, such that we now have joint Navy-Air Force bases.

Now, I had always been an advocate of my interpretation of "Total Force", which is that we are on the same team committed to the same Mission so stop this stupid inter-branch rivalry and bickering! Inter-branch inclusiveness.

Your model of exclusiveness just brings us back to the disaster of the failed mission to rescue the American Embassy hostages in Teheran (Spring 1980), which was our wake-up call for the need to learn to integrate for joint operations. But let's take your desired model one step further and anticipate the inter-branch exclusivity and rivalry escalating to open aggression and virtual civil war between the branches complete with weapons fired in anger.

Somewhat hyperbolic, but what's the limit, where would we draw the line? Your need for exclusiveness would require something like apartheid where the "wrong" segments of our diverse population would have to be collected and restricted in special "homeland" regions where they would have to endure poverty and lack of proper education, medical care, or even any kind of functional economy.

Instead of all of us being Americans living in the same country and participating in the same economy and society, you want to fragment us into privileged communities for your "IN group" and ghettos for the "Others" (I'm thinking of the original ghettos, i ghetti, in which the Jews had been segregated for centuries in order to protect the Christians from having to deal with the "anarchy" of being exposed to the existence of a different religion)? You are advocating the oppression of the "Others"?

Oppressing entire large portions of the population leads to deeply ingrained resentment and eventually erupts into violent rebellion with devastating consequences for our society. Is that what you really advocate? Basically, that would result in the widespread outbreak of anarchy, which you claim is what you want to keep have happening. Yet you promote anarchy happening.

Or wouldn't including those large portions of the population into all aspects of society help to keep anarchy from happening? And to allow our society -- and ourselves -- to prosper?

If the universe were only humans plus a myriad of other strange life forms, how would it be any safer than being in communion?

I have no idea what you are talking about. First you advocate for exclusion and then you switch sides and talk about "being in communion"?

Who being in communion with whom? Only your "IN group" excluding "the Others" whom you keep safely locked away out of sight in their ghettos?

Have you actually thought any of this through?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2751 by Phat, posted 04-24-2021 3:08 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4042
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(3)
Message 2755 of 2755 (886582)
05-25-2021 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2693 by Raphael
03-19-2021 8:15 PM


Re: Einstein's God of Spinoza
Raphael writes:

It sounds to me Stile like you believe in God a lot more than you think you do . What you're saying is really similar to the Apostle John in 1 John
Sounds like the scriptures agree with you more than you realize

I have no issues sounding like I believe in God or agreeing with scriptures.
Some definitions of God, and His scriptures, are very nice and attractive. I would like to be associated with such things, so thank-you for doing so.

If love has a being, why wouldn't I want to follow it/him/her/they? If a Divine Being exists, and it embodies love, why wouldn't we want more of it in our life?

If love had a being, I would follow it/him/her/they (because I follow love.)
If a Divine Being existed, and it embodies love, then I think we should all want more of this Diving Being in my life (because I want more love in all lives.)

But if I already follow love, and a being happens to exist that embodies that love... nothing about my life would change.
I would already be following that Divine Being, without even knowing it, just by following love.

So, again, the idea of such a Divine Being, regardless of whether or not it actually exists, is superfluous until such a time that this being is shown to exist, and can expound on our ideas of what love is.

Your reasoning here seems to be throwing away one specific outcome because you have rejected it ahead of time...

But... I haven't rejected anything.
I am perfectly willing, open, and desire a connection with any being that can help show Love.
That being can be as small as any mundane creature of this world (sometimes even a house-cat can teach us things we don't know about Love.)
That being can be as large as a Diving Being.
I am interested in anything that can teach us about or show Love.

Of course, as far as Gods are concerned... until one is actually shown to exist: I Know That God Does Not Exist.
And, lucky for me, I can still follow Love as much as possible anyway.

Much love friends

You too!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2693 by Raphael, posted 03-19-2021 8:15 PM Raphael has not yet responded

  
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