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Author
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Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4411 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.4
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Message 2791 of 3207 (894694)
05-26-2022 10:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 2790 by Dredge
05-26-2022 9:45 PM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
That's the strange thing about miracles, they are completely identical to delusions and fraud.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2790 by Dredge, posted 05-26-2022 9:45 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2792 by jar, posted 05-26-2022 10:31 PM | | Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
And even if they actually were true they would not be evidence of God or anything supernatural. The problem is that kids like Dredge and Phat simply have never learned what might be evidence.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2791 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-26-2022 10:24 PM | | Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2796 by Phat, posted 05-27-2022 11:19 AM | | jar has replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8529 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 2793 of 3207 (894701)
05-27-2022 1:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 2790 by Dredge
05-26-2022 9:45 PM
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Wacko
Dredge, you really don't want to tell anyone of these "experiences" of yours. They really are a result of coincidence and to claim supernatural origins is, indeed, a result of mental defect. Especially the "full on vision" episode which involves delusional hallucination and requires the intervention of a psychiatrist. To be clear, it is not only the delusional hallucination episodes that are the great concern here but that you hear voices and see visions that tell you to do things and you do them. That is the story of every murderous religious psychopath in history. If you continue to insist they are real then you could lose your job. No one wants a demented religious wacko on staff.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2790 by Dredge, posted 05-26-2022 9:45 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2828 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2022 6:36 AM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 2794 of 3207 (894715)
05-27-2022 9:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 2790 by Dredge
05-26-2022 9:45 PM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
If I only had a dime for every time an evangelist said, "God appeared to me in a vision last night..." --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2790 by Dredge, posted 05-26-2022 9:45 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2795 by Phat, posted 05-27-2022 11:15 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 2795 of 3207 (894716)
05-27-2022 11:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 2794 by Percy
05-27-2022 9:12 AM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
Before I say this, I will report that my blood sugars have come down though still high. OK... God has never appeared to me at all. I HAVE heard an audible voice perhaps 2 times in my life, though I will place that in the unexplained category. Usually, (and only after being on a regular discipline of daily prayer and meditation for a time, I will awaken with an epiphany (how do I explain it?) where there is something that I have no doubt I should address. It is never any carnal thing such as betting on the #3 horse or rushing to warn EvC of a coming economic collapse. It is usually a reminder of someone that I need to call or help in some way and it is always an act of generousity (and necessity) and never selfish.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2794 by Percy, posted 05-27-2022 9:12 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2801 by ringo, posted 05-27-2022 12:41 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 2796 of 3207 (894717)
05-27-2022 11:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 2792 by jar
05-26-2022 10:31 PM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
And what "kids" like you and ringo have never learned is that God is all about belief and is not required to be forever verified by evidence. For one thing, God does not talk with or help everybody (despite your logical conclusion that He ought to do so) and though He loves the world He makes it clear that belief is part of the deal rather than stoic skepticism and doubt. The whole idea of "throwing Him away" was always silly and never fully explained as to why the idea was wise.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2792 by jar, posted 05-26-2022 10:31 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2802 by ringo, posted 05-27-2022 12:50 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 2803 by jar, posted 05-27-2022 1:07 PM | | Phat has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 2797 of 3207 (894722)
05-27-2022 11:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 2782 by Phat
05-26-2022 2:14 PM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
Phat writes: My point is that your order (belief being in last place )is completely backward.
And your point is completely wrong.
Phat writes: We don't pray and then wait.
The lady in the story did. She waited when her rescuers were staring her in the face. She waited until she died.
Phat writes: It is not one or the other. We pray and then act.
Nonsense. The idea is NOT to act for yourself because you have "faith" in God to act for you. That's what Jesus said. That's what the lady in the story did.
Phat writes: You would have us simply acting in humanist unison (as if there even were such a thing) and ignore God except as an afterthought.
It's not what I would have you do. It's what Jesus would have you do. It's what the lady in the story did.
Phat writes: You often claim that God has never evidentially shown up. I would markedly disagree.
So show us the evidence.
Phat writes: God is Spirit. Humanism has no collective spirit apart from an imaginary one.
And God is also imaginary. The difference is that humanism gets things done, with or without a "collective spirit".
Phat writes: Why do you think politics is always divided?
Because there are different ways of achieving the same goals.
Phat writes: Why do you think that a unified world (apart from a NATO military alliance) is never within reach?
What do you even mean by "a unified world"?
Phat writes: Yet you would rather hide behind the fact that since you don't believe God exists, you can hide from spiritual unity except on your own terms.
And what does "spiritual unity" mean?
Phat writes: A Global Communion without God is in reality a countterfeit.
I couldn't care less about "Global Communion", so I don't know why you're rattling on about it. But of course, your God IS a counterfeit and your "communion with Him is a counterfeit. And your idea that the world "needs" (your) god is just silly.
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2782 by Phat, posted 05-26-2022 2:14 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2805 by Phat, posted 05-27-2022 2:04 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 2798 of 3207 (894724)
05-27-2022 12:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 2783 by Phat
05-26-2022 2:38 PM
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Re: How So?
Phat writes: I would argue that 50 years of daily prayer and communion is more of a discipline than a fantasy.
Doing the same thing for 50 years with no result is more of a waste of time.
Phat writes: It's like working out to strengthen the body...except that it strengthens the mind.
You haven't demonstrated a strong mind here.
Phat writes: Rule # 2: Imagining yourself in charge is like telling me I think I'm infallible.
Where did that come from? I don't imagine myself in charge. I do say that you think you're infallible - and you have as much as admitted it.
Phat writes: Science always questions the default of the day. Science is not meant to judge or conclude anything.
And?
Phat writes: If I recall correctly, you said that nobody can have perfect knowledge without conducting every possible experiment. (an impossible task)
Well, nobody can have perfect knowledge because it is impossible to do every possible experiment.
Phat writes: When I said that you claim to have evidence that places belief in last place, you forgot to admit that you did not have perfect knowledge confirming your evidence.
There's nothing to "admit". I never claimed to have "perfect knowledge" about anything.
Phat writes: I have said before that I never consider myself infallible but that I believe that Jesus is infallible.
You believe you're infallible in your ability to choose the "one true God". You even reject what your buddy Jesus actually said (as far as we can tell) in favor of what you have made up about Him.
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2783 by Phat, posted 05-26-2022 2:38 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 2799 of 3207 (894725)
05-27-2022 12:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 2785 by EWolf
05-26-2022 4:46 PM
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EWolf writes: What do we do about the fact that we were told that God exist?
We're also told that fairies exist. We're told a lot of nonsense.
EWolf writes: If we find a sand castle on a beach we know its builder exists.
If we see perfect, uniform waves on the water, we don't assume that somebody "built" them. If we see perfect, uniform waves on a sand dune in the desert, we don't assume that somebody "built" them. We understand that they are natural behavior based on the nature of matter.
EWolf writes: Where did our worth, dignity, and our right originate?
In our minds.
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2785 by EWolf, posted 05-26-2022 4:46 PM | | EWolf has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 2800 of 3207 (894726)
05-27-2022 12:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 2790 by Dredge
05-26-2022 9:45 PM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
Dredge writes: I could tell about the time God "poofed" me out of trouble by literally saving my life by warning me audibly of an unseen danger that I was a few seconds away from ... but I won't, because you'd dismiss it as a fantasy or a lie or a manifestation of mental illness.
I could tell YOU a story:
In 1973, I was working with another fellow up at the lake - fifty miles from nowhere - in the dead of a Saskatchewan winter. At quitting time, the car wouldn't start. It turned out that the spark was shooting through a hole in the distributer cap and shorting out against the engine. We had a key to the one building that had a fireplace and we were contemplating spending the night when a car came down the hill. A friend of my co-worker happened to be in the area and decided to drop by to say hello. We hitched a ride back to the city with him. I would call that ... a coincidence.
Dredge writes: I could also tell you about a full-on vision I had that showed me the future in precise detail ...
If your vision came true, I'd be impressed. But none of that has anything to do with what I said and you quoted. The point of the little-old-lady-in-the-flood story is that her faith was misplaced. Instead of "trusting in God", she should have accepted the REAL help that was available.
Dredge writes: Apparently, the machine doesn't want me to use the word, "s-t-o-r-y" (*****)
You must be a really evil miscreant if you're not allowed to say "story". Try "teddy bear".
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2790 by Dredge, posted 05-26-2022 9:45 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2829 by Dredge, posted 05-31-2022 6:57 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 2801 of 3207 (894727)
05-27-2022 12:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 2795 by Phat
05-27-2022 11:15 AM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
Phat writes: It is usually a reminder of someone that I need to call or help in some way and it is always an act of generousity (and necessity) and never selfish.
My first question would be: Why do you need to be "called" to an act of generosity?
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2795 by Phat, posted 05-27-2022 11:15 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 2802 of 3207 (894728)
05-27-2022 12:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 2796 by Phat
05-27-2022 11:19 AM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
Phat writes: And what "kids" like you and ringo have never learned is that God is all about belief and is not required to be forever verified by evidence.
Why would we "learn" something that isn't true and makes no sense? EVERYTHING has to be verified by evidence. God's exemption is just a convenient lie.
Phat writes: For one thing, God does not talk with or help everybody (despite your logical conclusion that He ought to do so)...
Another convenient lie.
Phat writes: ... He makes it clear that belief is part of the deal rather than stoic skepticism and doubt.
Where did He make that clear?
Phat writes: The whole idea of "throwing Him away" was always silly and never fully explained as to why the idea was wise.
And you have never explained why it is silly. It's just something you don't want to do. You might as well say it's silly to wash the dishes.
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2796 by Phat, posted 05-27-2022 11:19 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 2803 of 3207 (894730)
05-27-2022 1:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 2796 by Phat
05-27-2022 11:19 AM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
Phat writes: And what "kids" like you and ringo have never learned is that God is all about belief and is not required to be forever verified by evidence. For one thing, God does not talk with or help everybody (despite your logical conclusion that He ought to do so) and though He loves the world He makes it clear that belief is part of the deal rather than stoic skepticism and doubt. Yes Phat, close your eyes and say "I DO believe in fairies. I DO believe in fairies." And as you say belief is the single important and necessary condition for the existence of any and all God(s) and god(s). They exist only as long as someone believes they exist. And Tinkers spark of life glowed again simply because all the kids DID believe in fairies.
Pat writes: The whole idea of "throwing Him away" was always silly and never fully explained as to why the idea was wise. Actually it has been explained to you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and ... over again. The reason is simple. EVERY God and god ever described by any human is a creation of that human and exists only in that humans fantasy. GOD, if GOD does exist in not any of the God(s) or god(s) humans create.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2796 by Phat, posted 05-27-2022 11:19 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2804 by Phat, posted 05-27-2022 1:22 PM | | jar has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 2804 of 3207 (894732)
05-27-2022 1:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 2803 by jar
05-27-2022 1:07 PM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
jar writes: The reason is simple. EVERY God and god ever described by any human is a creation of that human and exists only in that humans fantasy. GOD, if GOD does exist in not any of the God(s) or god(s) humans create. That still does not explain why one should "throw Jesus away". Jesus is to most "clubs" of Christianity Gods (dare I say GOD's) human character. Any Christian worth their salt knows that Jesus Himself is what makes our belief what it is. And no, He is NOT Holy Jeeves. He did not simply give us Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth and disappear either. Jesus (eternally alive) is what makes our 50-year praying Grandmother an example of lifelong discipline as opposed to lifelong fantasy.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2803 by jar, posted 05-27-2022 1:07 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2806 by jar, posted 05-27-2022 2:52 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 2805 of 3207 (894734)
05-27-2022 2:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 2797 by ringo
05-27-2022 11:57 AM
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Re: Fixed it for you Phat.
Phat writes: You often claim that God has never evidentially shown up. I would markedly disagree.
ringo writes: So show us the evidence. You have said before that belief is ONLY to be employed in the absence of evidence. Why MUST I show you evidence? Are you so cavalier towards God's existence that you require evidence? If so, our arguments will never go anywhere. You are unimpressed with my belief until and unless I give everything up. I can't impress upon you how rare that occurs within global Christianity or why it is a deal-breaker.
ringo writes: And God is also imaginary. How convenient to state in order to get yourself off of a hook that you think I should be on! 
ringo writes: The difference is that humanism gets things done, with or without a "collective spirit". Explain (for example) how humanism will achieve world peace. Humanism won't work without money. And money is about to decrease markedly in value even as prices inflate.
there are different ways of achieving the same goals.
If so then why division rather than consensus?
ringo writes: What do you even mean by "a unified world"? Sorta like a global NATO without the military element. How, for example, does anyone reason with Vladimir Putin?
ringo writes: And what does "spiritual unity" mean? Being in one accord. Letting God Bless not only America but the Planet. Unlikely to happen with the CCP and Putin, however. China wants its turn running things without having to give the US a fair cut. Hence why we spend so much on our military.
I couldn't care less about "Global Communion", so I don't know why you're rattling on about it. Explain how secular humanism would get anything done without a common cause?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2797 by ringo, posted 05-27-2022 11:57 AM | | ringo has replied |
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