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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2956 of 3207 (896501)
08-11-2022 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2954 by ringo
08-11-2022 12:22 PM


Bridge Over Troubled Waters
ringo writes:
You can believe until the cows come home that you can jump the river like them Duke boys. But you have to discard that belief if you want to survive.
Perhaps that is why you don't feel that you have to "give it all up". Survival is more important than God.
I, on the other hand, am changing my argument. I now agree with you that in order to be honest about my belief, I *DO* in fact have to give it all up. One thing you said that prompted me to rethink my position is that comment about how little children don't worry about their retirement. That and the fact that my blood sugars arre more stable. I found myself ranting illogically more often when my sugars were too high. So science did save me after all!
As far as your bridge analogy, it is not our only choice. It is simply the most convenient choice. When you simply stopped looking, you realized that the bridge of logic was safer and more convenient than trusting that you could either swim or walk on water.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2954 by ringo, posted 08-11-2022 12:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2959 by ringo, posted 08-11-2022 12:45 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2957 of 3207 (896502)
08-11-2022 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2952 by Phat
08-11-2022 11:39 AM


Re: Philisophical Difference
Phat writes:
So are you saying that since levels of contentment are relative to the individual, "knowing" is also relative to the individual?
I didn't think Stile was saying that - but he did say "I" know. Maybe "I" can know something that "you" don't.
Phat writes:
Or are you pushing for knowledge to be objective and absolute?
Objective and absolute are not the same thing.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2952 by Phat, posted 08-11-2022 11:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 2958 of 3207 (896503)
08-11-2022 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 2952 by Phat
08-11-2022 11:39 AM


Re: Philisophical Difference
Phat writes:
Perhaps one's level of knowledge is correlated with their need to know.
Not their level of knowledge... but their level of tentativity/acceptance... absolutely. As it should be.
I would expect my level of tentativity/acceptance on if a certain character build in Destiny 2 is good to use is higher than yours.
Because I play Destiny 2 - I'm interested.
I'm guessing you don't play Destiny 2 - so why should you care?
The level of knowledge is also kind of along these same lines (why would someone know a lot about something they're not interested in?)... but this isn't as direct of a link, it's more coincidental/functional.
So are you saying that since levels of contentment are relative to the individual, "knowing" is also relative to the individual?
You think it isn't?
Have you never heard someone say "I know I can beat you in a race!" and then go on to lose that race?
Some people throw the word "know" around as if it means "hope."
Others reserve the word and hardly ever use it all.. preferring to say "I think..." or "Probably.."
Most just use it as we all do - when something is personally considered to be a fact.
"Personally considering" something to be a fact... is the very definition of "relative to the individual."
It is not possible for us to actually know something... anything... 100%.
What would you compare it to in order to verify?
Do you have an answer book for the questions of life?
Why do think science never "proves" anything and only works on evidence and confidence?
Because that's all any of us can ever do.
Years ago Science "knew" Newton's description of gravity.
Later, Science "knew" Einstein's description of gravity.
Now, we know more.
What will we know about gravity in the future?
If Science... the very best method we've ever come up with in "knowing things" never actually claims to know/prove things... and only works in evidence and confidence... what does this tell you?
Or are you pushing for knowledge to be objective and absolute?
Heh... I'm not even sure reality itself is objective and absolute in the context you're asking here

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2952 by Phat, posted 08-11-2022 11:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2959 of 3207 (896504)
08-11-2022 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2956 by Phat
08-11-2022 12:36 PM


Re: Bridge Over Troubled Waters
Phat writes:
Perhaps that is why you don't feel that you have to "give it all up".
You don't need to "perhaps" it. I have told you explicitly many times why I don't have to "give it all up". I have told you so many times that I'm not even going to tell you again. I will add that I also feel I don't have to make a pilgrimage to Mecca or refrain from eating shellfish. There are a lot of religious beliefs that I don't feel I have to follow. Can't you figure out why?
Phat writes:
Survival is more important than God.
Well, of course it is.
Phat writes:
As far as your bridge analogy, it is not our only choice.
Go ahead and list some other choices.
Phat writes:
When you simply stopped looking, you realized that the bridge of logic was safer and more convenient than trusting that you could either swim or walk on water.
Unless you're planning on walking across with your car under your arm, that's not a viable choice.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2956 by Phat, posted 08-11-2022 12:36 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2961 by Phat, posted 08-11-2022 1:45 PM ringo has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(7)
Message 2960 of 3207 (896505)
08-11-2022 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2955 by ringo
08-11-2022 12:28 PM


Re: The Man In The Book
ringo writes:
I have a table like that. I can look for something twenty times and it isn't there - and then it is there.
For me it's the pantry.
I swear things only pop into existence after Wifey tells me it's exactly where I just looked...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2955 by ringo, posted 08-11-2022 12:28 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2961 of 3207 (896509)
08-11-2022 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 2959 by ringo
08-11-2022 12:45 PM


Re: Bridge Over Troubled Waters
There are a lot of religious beliefs that I don't feel I have to follow. Can't you figure out why?
For one thing you have far too many of them on the list.
I can think of Jesus in light of the bridge analogy. He is the only way to the Father.
But then you go and throw Mecca on the list. Different bridge, different town.
Canadians can walk on water. They lace up their skates and wait for it to freeze.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2959 by ringo, posted 08-11-2022 12:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2963 by DrJones*, posted 08-11-2022 11:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2965 by ringo, posted 08-12-2022 11:51 AM Phat has replied
 Message 2966 by Theodoric, posted 08-12-2022 12:33 PM Phat has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 2962 of 3207 (896510)
08-11-2022 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 2955 by ringo
08-11-2022 12:28 PM


Re: The Man In The Book
My whole apartment is that way.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2955 by ringo, posted 08-11-2022 12:28 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 2963 of 3207 (896511)
08-11-2022 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 2961 by Phat
08-11-2022 1:45 PM


Re: Bridge Over Troubled Waters
For one thing you have far too many of them on the list.
so can you answer his question or are you just going to dodge?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2961 by Phat, posted 08-11-2022 1:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2964 of 3207 (896516)
08-12-2022 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 2950 by Phat
08-11-2022 11:08 AM


Re: The Man In The Book
Phat writes:
Let's say you're on a committee putting together a list of unevidenced things to consider. What are your criteria?
Geez, Phat, forget the committee. Let's say it's just you. You're deciding what items to put a list of list of unevidenced things to consider. What are your criteria for inclusion on this list?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2950 by Phat, posted 08-11-2022 11:08 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2969 by Phat, posted 08-12-2022 2:41 PM Percy has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 2965 of 3207 (896518)
08-12-2022 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 2961 by Phat
08-11-2022 1:45 PM


Re: Bridge Over Troubled Waters
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
There are a lot of religious beliefs that I don't feel I have to follow. Can't you figure out why?
For one thing you have far too many of them on the list.
Don't evade the question. Why do you think I don't feeel obligated to make a pilgrimage to Mecca? Answer the question.
Do YOU feel obligated to make a pilgrimage to Mecca? Why not?
Phat writes:
I can think of Jesus in light of the bridge analogy. He is the only way to the Father.
But then you go and throw Mecca on the list. Different bridge, different town.
Same river. Same way of getting across.
Phat writes:
Canadians can walk on water. They lace up their skates and wait for it to freeze.
So Jesus isn't "the only way" after all.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2961 by Phat, posted 08-11-2022 1:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2967 by Phat, posted 08-12-2022 2:26 PM ringo has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2966 of 3207 (896519)
08-12-2022 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2961 by Phat
08-11-2022 1:45 PM


Re: Bridge Over Troubled Waters
Why limit it to Canadians? Always a need to put people into groups and hierarchies with you.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2961 by Phat, posted 08-11-2022 1:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2968 by Phat, posted 08-12-2022 2:31 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2967 of 3207 (896520)
08-12-2022 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2965 by ringo
08-12-2022 11:51 AM


Re: Bridge Over Troubled Waters
ringo writes:
So Jesus isn't "the only way" after all.
I don't follow. In the Gospel Of John, the text says that through Him all things were created. Including water and ice, caused by lack of heat from the Sun that the Son also created.
Don't evade the question. Why do you think I don't feel obligated to make a pilgrimage to Mecca? Answer the question.
You first concluded that humans had many gods. You next concluded that you didn't need to follow ANY of them, including Jesus. And yet...
Same river. Same way of getting across.
I know you dont like me talking about the antichrist, but let me tell you liberals something.
Some day, some leader is going to say the things you all want to hear. About how the government need to take away all of the guns and all of the nukes. And about how humans are the only solution for humanity. And that everyone is special in their own way and that no culture or race should dominate others. This leader will profess no religion. This leader will likely be a loving humanist. And most of the people in the world will agree finally. The ones who oppose will be religious authoritarians from the conservative side...including Israel. And one day this leader will walk into that new Temple that will be built in Israel and will go in to the holy of holies and say that we humans are the only important character in future progress. It will sound beautiful...but watch what happens next.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2965 by ringo, posted 08-12-2022 11:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2979 by ringo, posted 08-12-2022 10:08 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2968 of 3207 (896521)
08-12-2022 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2966 by Theodoric
08-12-2022 12:33 PM


Re: Bridge Over Troubled Waters
Always a need to put people into groups and hierarchies with you.
There is really only one hierarchy. 1) First God.
2) Then Humanity.
Period. The problem in this world is that people either think they are number one or they eliminate the need for step one and go directly to step two, thinking there is truth in numbers.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2966 by Theodoric, posted 08-12-2022 12:33 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2969 of 3207 (896522)
08-12-2022 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 2964 by Percy
08-12-2022 11:27 AM


Re: The Man In The Book
Percy writes:
Let's say it's just you. You're deciding what items to put a list of list of unevidenced things to consider. What are your criteria for inclusion on this list?
Were it up to me personally to make the list without worrying about appeasing or pleasing the crowds, I would start and end my list with Jesus Christ.
Were I to be attempting to gain consensus with a committee, however, I would expand my list to include:
1)Supernatural claims
2)All Deities In General (or claimed Deities)
3) All Folklore including Bigfeets, Elves, and the like.
Perhaps even
4) Unevidenced ideological claims of humans from all political persuasions.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2964 by Percy, posted 08-12-2022 11:27 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2970 by Theodoric, posted 08-12-2022 5:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2971 by Percy, posted 08-12-2022 5:35 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 2970 of 3207 (896526)
08-12-2022 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2969 by Phat
08-12-2022 2:41 PM


Re: The Man In The Book
This shows that the jesus dude is on the same level as bigfoot and elves. High praise indeed.

Edited by Theodoric, : Spelling


What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2969 by Phat, posted 08-12-2022 2:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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