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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3016 of 3207 (896589)
08-14-2022 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 2981 by ringo
08-12-2022 10:15 PM


In The Beginning,Evidence?
ringo, responding to Dredge writes:
Whether he "needs" it or not, the evidence is there. Whether he sees it or not, the evidence is there.
I dunno about this rabbit trail.
Are you extrapolating that Evidence would "exist" even without humans? (Or Monkeys)
Based on that logic, we could say "In The Beginning, Evidence.
I remember one time when you thought it plausible that "In The Beginning, Chemicals."

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2981 by ringo, posted 08-12-2022 10:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3017 by Percy, posted 08-14-2022 10:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 3018 by AZPaul3, posted 08-14-2022 12:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 3019 by dwise1, posted 08-14-2022 1:09 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 3030 by ringo, posted 08-15-2022 11:42 AM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 3017 of 3207 (896590)
08-14-2022 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 3016 by Phat
08-14-2022 9:43 AM


Re: In The Beginning,Evidence?
Phat writes:
ringo, responding to Dredge writes:
Whether he "needs" it or not, the evidence is there. Whether he sees it or not, the evidence is there.
I dunno about this rabbit trail.

Are you extrapolating that Evidence would "exist" even without humans? (Or Monkeys)
Evidence has no special quality regarding existence. It's just matter like all other matter consisting of atoms bound into molecules and gathered into a specific shape, like a fossil. Before some paleontologist digs the fossil out of the ground the fossil still exists, even though it's never been in the presence of humans.
So of course evidence exists without humans. How could it not? More specifically to what ringo was saying, humans can ignore evidence if they so choose, but that doesn't make it disappear.
Based on that logic, we could say "In The Beginning, Evidence."
You could even say, "Everywhere throughout all time, evidence."
I remember one time when you thought it plausible that "In The Beginning, Chemicals."
I assume ringo was referring to the Earth, in which case this is absolutely right. If he was instead referring to the universe then it isn't yet settled science about what was present in the beginning.
You need to find some way to recognize when you're thinking clearly. This is all just common sense. They're not deep philosophical questions like, "Why something instead of nothing?"
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3016 by Phat, posted 08-14-2022 9:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 3018 of 3207 (896591)
08-14-2022 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 3016 by Phat
08-14-2022 9:43 AM


Re: In The Beginning,Evidence?
In the beginning there was evidence but there was no understanding.
Then the evolved apes on one world said, "Let us do science, find the evidence and understand." And it was so.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3016 by Phat, posted 08-14-2022 9:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 3019 of 3207 (896592)
08-14-2022 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 3016 by Phat
08-14-2022 9:43 AM


Re: In The Beginning,Evidence?
Are you extrapolating that Evidence would "exist" even without humans? (Or Monkeys)
Yes, of course! Every action has consequences independent of any observer.
Photosynthesis produces carbohydrates and oxygen. Alpha and bravo fires consume carbohydrates and produce heat, carbon dioxide, and other compounds. All that happens regardless of whether there is an observer or not. The decay of radioactive elements produces daughter elements, chains of them even, all without any need for any observer.
What we do need an observer for, as well as mental processes such as exist in the human mind, is to recognize those products as evidence.
IOW, evidence exists completely independent of humans, but we do need the human mind (or minds of comparable intelligence) to recognize evidence for what it is and for what it can tell us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3016 by Phat, posted 08-14-2022 9:43 AM Phat has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


(1)
Message 3020 of 3207 (896594)
08-14-2022 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 3013 by Parasomnium
08-14-2022 3:29 AM


Parsomnium writes:
So you're trying to show my argument is stupid by using a counter-argument that's... well, profoundly stupid?
No. I wish to withdraw my argument on account of it being stupid ... maybe even profoundly stupid.
In an attempt to save face, I will place the blame for my mistake on a lack of coffee. Yep, that'll work ...

Edited by Dredge, .

Edited by Dredge, .

Edited by Dredge, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3013 by Parasomnium, posted 08-14-2022 3:29 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3025 by Parasomnium, posted 08-14-2022 6:23 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 3021 of 3207 (896595)
08-14-2022 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 3007 by Phat
08-13-2022 3:31 PM


Re: Parameters By Definition
Phat writes:
When you had your confirmation on the road to becoming a "good" Catholic
What do you mean by 'a "good" Catholic'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3007 by Phat, posted 08-13-2022 3:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3022 by Phat, posted 08-14-2022 4:02 PM Dredge has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3022 of 3207 (896596)
08-14-2022 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 3021 by Dredge
08-14-2022 3:34 PM


Re: Parameters By Definition
A genuine believer rather than one who simply goes through the motions and listens to the traditions because their parents did. One who goes to Mass to commune with God directly.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3021 by Dredge, posted 08-14-2022 3:34 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3023 by Dredge, posted 08-14-2022 4:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


(1)
Message 3023 of 3207 (896598)
08-14-2022 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 3022 by Phat
08-14-2022 4:02 PM


Re: Parameters By Definition
Unfortunately there is no shortage of "cultural" Catholics who attend Mass every Sunday but are simply going through the motions. They may have a degree of faith, but they have yet to experiece a true and deep conversion ... at least, that the impression I get. I doubt if they ever pray in private and probably won't take God seriously until they're on their death-beds.
I've met practising Catholics who are agnostic ... I even knew one who went to Mass every Sunday but was an atheist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3022 by Phat, posted 08-14-2022 4:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 3024 of 3207 (896600)
08-14-2022 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2905 by Parasomnium
08-07-2022 7:11 PM


Parasomnium writes:
God is descibed as omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. It can be argued that these three attributes are mutually incompatible ...
that's one way we can know that God does not exist, if God is indeed supposed to have these three attributes simultaneously. 
If that argument lets you know that God cannot possess those three attributes similtaneuosly, I don't think it lets you know that "God does not exist" - it doesn't rule out the possibility that God exists without possessing those three attributes similtaneously.
For example, God might be omnipotent and omniscient but not omnibenevolent.

Edited by Dredge, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2905 by Parasomnium, posted 08-07-2022 7:11 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3051 by Parasomnium, posted 08-16-2022 2:13 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 3025 of 3207 (896602)
08-14-2022 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 3020 by Dredge
08-14-2022 2:51 PM


Dredge writes:
I wish to withdraw my argument on account of it being stupid ... maybe even profoundly stupid.
I must say, that is a commendable response to my criticism. In my opinion it even merits an apology (hereby offered) for the harsh tone of my previous message.
Dredge writes:
In an attempt to save face, I will place the blame for my mistake on a lack of coffee.
If coffee is what it takes to avoid stupid mistakes then there is hope for you yet. I suggest you up the dosage a notch and enjoy the coffee-klatsch that is EvC.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3020 by Dredge, posted 08-14-2022 2:51 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3026 by dwise1, posted 08-14-2022 8:03 PM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 3038 by Dredge, posted 08-15-2022 7:40 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 3026 of 3207 (896607)
08-14-2022 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3025 by Parasomnium
08-14-2022 6:23 PM


Sludge writes:
In an attempt to save face, I will place the blame for my mistake on a lack of coffee.
If coffee is what it takes to avoid stupid mistakes then there is hope for you yet. I suggest you up the dosage a notch and enjoy the coffee-klatsch that is EvC.
Good advice, but utterly useless in Sludge's case. His willful stupidity is far too profound for any hope of a cure for him.
To borrow from a Lou Grant line 1:
quote
There's not enough coffee in the world!
 

1 FOOTNOTE:
Scene from The Mary Tyler Moore Show. Lou Grant arrives at work in a cheerful happy mood, which alarms all his co-workers. He explains that he'd been out drinking all night and was still drunk.
Sue Ann Nivens sidles up to Lou and asks him whether if he had drunk enough he might actually like her. He ponders the question for a second and says, "Sure!" After she leaves very elated, he adds, "There's not enough booze in the world!"
 

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3025 by Parasomnium, posted 08-14-2022 6:23 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 3027 of 3207 (896608)
08-15-2022 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 3004 by Dredge
08-13-2022 2:48 PM


Re: Pot Meet Kettle?
DWise1 writes:
These things have been explained to him repeatedly for many months, yet he just keeps on posting the same stupid BS nonsense. He is being most stubbornly willfully stupid about everything, reverting to stupid taunts repeatedly ... He is far less than a bottom-feeding troll.
Those accusations are grossly unfair and lack empathy, compassion and understanding.
It was a very fair and factually accurate assessment of your conduct.
As for "empathy, compassion and understanding", you do not even remote rate the first two and we understand what you are and what you are doing far too well.
Yesterday at my sister's she discovered a young lizard in her living room. I was able to capture it whereupon I took it out to the front yard and released it in the hedge where it could continue with its life. Despite their being fundamentalist Christians, my sister and her family were delighted at a life having been saved (the saving of a life is much more a Jewish thing; now if I could get them to return to Pharisee teachings like the Golden Rule we just might be able to start making some progress).
That small lizard was deserving of empathy and compassion. An evil creationist (pardon the redundancy) scum-sucking bottom-feeding willfully stupid lying troll such as yourself deserves absolutely no empathy nor compassion. For that matter, that small lizard had vastly more humanity than you troll ever could have. As far as we can tell, you may be nothing more than an extremely perverted ELIZA.
I'm just a stumbling, bumbling idiot trying to survive and make sense of a baffling world.
That is a deliberate lie! :
If you were actually trying to "make sense of a baffling world", then you would be trying to learn something. Instead, you are doing the exact opposite through your persistent willful stupidity.
You fucking evil liar!
My latest struggle is trying to get my tiny little fragile egg-shell mind around the claim that science can't prove anything.
Yet another fucking lie!
You are nothing but an evil creationist scum-sucking bottom-feeding willfully stupid lying troll.
Or to refer to Markus Lycus' assessment of your gross inability to ever improve yourself through learning:
quote
But you'll never learn, you'll be a eunuch all your life.
 

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3004 by Dredge, posted 08-13-2022 2:48 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3028 by Dredge, posted 08-15-2022 5:29 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 3028 of 3207 (896609)
08-15-2022 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 3027 by dwise1
08-15-2022 2:38 AM


Re: Pot Meet Kettle?
dwise1 writes:
That small lizard was deserving of empathy and compassion. An evil creationist (pardon the redundancy) scum-sucking bottom-feeding willfully stupid lying troll such as yourself deserves absolutely no empathy nor compassion. For that matter, that small lizard had vastly more humanity than you troll ever could have.
Ouch! That hurts ... so bad.

Edited by Dredge, .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3027 by dwise1, posted 08-15-2022 2:38 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3029 by dwise1, posted 08-15-2022 10:00 AM Dredge has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 3029 of 3207 (896615)
08-15-2022 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 3028 by Dredge
08-15-2022 5:29 AM


Re: Pot Meet Kettle?
Fucking willfully stupid troll!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3028 by Dredge, posted 08-15-2022 5:29 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 3030 of 3207 (896618)
08-15-2022 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 3016 by Phat
08-14-2022 9:43 AM


Re: In The Beginning,Evidence?
Phat writes:
Are you extrapolating that Evidence would "exist" even without humans? (Or Monkeys)
I don't see how it's extrapolating anything, but yes, of course evidence exists independent of any observer. Evidence is not some structure that you build up in your head to support your ideas. The evidence is there - and you can use the evidence to form ideas.
Phat writes:
Based on that logic, we could say "In The Beginning, Evidence.
Again, I don't see where logic enters into it. The evidence is there and was there, period. We can use logic to operate on the evidence to draw conclusions.
Phat writes:
I remember one time when you thought it plausible that "In The Beginning, Chemicals."
Who would think that is not plausible?

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3016 by Phat, posted 08-14-2022 9:43 AM Phat has not replied

  
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