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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
ringo
Member
Posts: 16673
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 556 of 789 (854345)
06-07-2019 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 549 by Faith
06-06-2019 4:54 PM


Re: Dan barkers godless audio version
Faith writes:

... either Jesus died for our sins or He did not, there's no grey area there....


Of course there's a gray area.

Did he even exist? That's pretty dark gray but not quite black.

Did He die for our sins? Of course not. But that's gray because dying for our sins doesn't make any sense anyway.

Did He rise from the dead? Of course not. But that's gray because it's irrelevant.

Is He alive today? Of course not - but also irrelevant.

Do His teachings have any value? That's a pretty light gray.

What's unfortunate is that you espouse only the darkest parts. (Ironic, too.)


All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by Faith, posted 06-06-2019 4:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 558 by Faith, posted 06-07-2019 2:48 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16673
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 557 of 789 (854346)
06-07-2019 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by Dredge
06-07-2019 2:21 AM


Dredge writes:

You're referring to symbolic language that describes a literal event in history.


There was never a time in history when there was one man and one woman. There was never a talking snake in history.

Dredge writes:

Where did you get "forever" from?


Matthew 25.

quote:
45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

In case you didn't know, "everlasting" = "forever". And the "he" doing the talking is Jesus.

You don't seem to know much about what the Bible says.


All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by Dredge, posted 06-07-2019 2:21 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 558 of 789 (854359)
06-07-2019 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 556 by ringo
06-07-2019 12:04 PM


Re: Dan barkers godless audio version
Different interpretations do not make a grey area.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 12:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16673
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 559 of 789 (854360)
06-07-2019 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 558 by Faith
06-07-2019 2:48 PM


Re: Dan barkers godless audio version
Faith writes:

Different interpretations do not make a grey area.


Sure they do. Black-and-white is only one of many possible interpretations and more often than not, it's wrong. It's only popular because it's simple.

Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.


All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Faith, posted 06-07-2019 2:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 560 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-07-2019 3:46 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 560 of 789 (854361)
06-07-2019 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 559 by ringo
06-07-2019 2:59 PM


Re: Dan barkers godless audio version
The audacity is that humans think they and not God can determine what is right and what is wrong. We wouldn't even have this capability unless God had given us the awareness through the Tree of Knowledge. And now that we have it, we scoff at our maker and declare that He is a myth and that we are gods.

For the record, I am in no way suggesting that we should be zombies. We are humans, we have brains, minds, and a conscience and it is our responsibility to try and do our best. And I can see the argument that you make that we have to do it since no magic genie is gonna carry us to the promised land...(nor that Trump is the prophet of Profit! ) I believe that when you state that you believe that Jesus Christ is a myth you have essentially shot yourself in the foot. Use your internal discernment...it is (or should be) based on more than simple physical evidence. As for Dan Barker...he is interesting so far...but I think that he too made a wrong move, though God may actually use him in the future to "save" atheists.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 559 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 2:59 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 561 by Theodoric, posted 06-07-2019 3:49 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 562 by ringo, posted 06-07-2019 4:02 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6310
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 561 of 789 (854362)
06-07-2019 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by Thugpreacha
06-07-2019 3:46 PM


Re: Dan barkers godless audio version
Well then your god should make an announcement telling us what is right or wrong. So far what ever way your god has tried to convey that info has not been real successful. Even the different christian sects can not agree. It is a bit of hubris to think you got the special message.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-07-2019 3:46 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16673
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 562 of 789 (854363)
06-07-2019 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by Thugpreacha
06-07-2019 3:46 PM


Re: Dan barkers godless audio version
Phat writes:

The audacity is that humans think they and not God can determine what is right and what is wrong.


Nothing audacious about that. We don't take leprechauns' opinions of right and wrong seriously, do we? We don't even consider the opinions of things that exist, like cholera bugs. The only "right" and "wrong" ideas that matter to us are our own.

Phat writes:

We wouldn't even have this capability unless God had given us the awareness through the Tree of Knowledge.


Empty claim.

Phat writes:

I believe that when you state that you believe that Jesus Christ is a myth you have essentially shot yourself in the foot.


Then you should be able to point to the bullet hole.

Phat writes:

Use your internal discernment...it is (or should be) based on more than simple physical evidence.


No. Even if there was such a thing as "internal discernment", it should definitely NOT be used to subvert evidence.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-07-2019 3:46 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3526
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 563 of 789 (854544)
06-10-2019 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 531 by Sarah Bellum
06-04-2019 4:39 PM


Sarah Bellum writes:

But I just want to know what we're talking about.

I Know That "God" Does Not Exist

What is meant by "God?"

In readying one of Phat's replies, it reminded me that I actually went over this already in this thread.
Check out this post:

Message 63

Does that help?

Basically, by "God" I'm talking about the popular North American version - a powerful (possibly all-powerful) being that created us, loves us, and is a part of our lives in some fashion.

But, as explained in that linked message, I'm pretty sure this claim holds up against almost any version of "God" that anyone holds.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 531 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-04-2019 4:39 PM Sarah Bellum has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3526
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 564 of 789 (854546)
06-10-2019 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 540 by Thugpreacha
06-05-2019 11:44 AM


Re: Spookies & Floodies
Thugpreacha writes:

Lets start at post#60, Stile...shall we?

Sure.
Although I almost missed this reply to me as it was linked to Pressie.

You basically argue that if we rationally search for "God" (as popularly defined/described) and we use all rational tools and methodologies at our disposal and we don't find anything, we can logically and honestly use your conclusion. Am I right so far?

I would say we can use all tools and methodologies at our disposal.
However, if you want to suggest ones that are "irrational" - it's up to you to show that they can actually work before claiming that they imply God's existence.

I have only used rational tools and methodologies since those are (as far as I know) the only ones that ever work.

So why am I crying so often lately??

...

Yes, really. Why the heck am I crying so much? What is touching me?

Are you trying to say that a man crying implies that God exists?
I don't see the connection.

People cry. You are a "people," aren't you?
People who never do things in their life - can do things later in life. You've never done something new before?

This all seems like incredibly mundane and normal things. I don't see how you crying implies that God exists in any way.

If I cry - is that proof that God does not exist?

Emotionally is where my belief finds strength.

I think this is healthy.
But I don't think it affects the conclusion I'm drawing here.

People find emotional strength from many things that are false.
-Sometimes people find unending strength from their relationship, but learn that their partner has been cheating on them all along
-Sometimes people kill themselves because they think the world is ending and "it's time."
-Many people believed smoking was healthy

I am not persuaded that God exists by your emotional belief giving you strength.
Emotional beliefs give people strength all the time.
I myself get massive strength from my emotions concerning my beliefs on love, family and friends - no God included.

My emotional catharsis is my primary subjective feeling that causes me to question my rationality.

That's fair enough.
But you questioning your rationality is no reason for any other rational argument to become invalid. In fact, it lends strength to the rational argument as your irrationality proves to be... undesirable.

You need to quit excluding your emotions from the data.

Why?
I like my emotions where they belong - in the subjective arena. They are stronger there.

More and more, I predict that people will be overwhelmed emotionally at future events.

I agree.
This proves that people don't like change.
It doesn't imply that God exists.

Of course many will jump right into religion without critically examining their beliefs....but I would argue that in times of crisis, belief becomes a better go-to crutch than logic, reason, and reality.

Belief is only a better go-to crutch than logic, reason and reality... for some people.

For others, belief only makes things worse. And only logic, reason and reality can grant the levels of solace and peace some of us strive for.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-05-2019 11:44 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3526
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 565 of 789 (854552)
06-10-2019 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Thugpreacha
06-05-2019 11:44 AM


Re: Spookies & Floodies
Thugpreacha writes:

...but I would argue that in times of crisis, belief becomes a better go-to crutch than logic, reason, and reality.

I wanted to post again on this one line, because I think it depicts one of the larger issues.

Many times people think that because a solution works well for them, then it works for everyone.
In fact, they don't even really "think" that... but they "assume" it.

They never stop to think that different people may think different than them.
They never stop to think that different people may need different things than them.

When they stop to think about it... they can understand it (I hope.) But it seems incredibly easy to fall back into the assumption that "everyone works like me."

When children grow up, you can see them grow through this issue.
Teenagers generally have an epiphany at some point on various ideas... "wait, not everyone celebrates Christmas???! That's crazy!!"

It's not crazy. It's just different.
Different in exactly the same way as favourite colours.

It simply takes a certain willingness and imagination to remember that the way things happen to you is not the same as the way things happen to others.

...belief becomes a better go-to crutch...

...for some people.
Not everyone feels confidence/safety/warmth by the idea of a powerful being that "saves everyone from everything" (but never actually seems to do any of it.)
Some people need reliance on actual real solutions.

Have you ever read the book Dune?

There's a line in it that gets repeated a lot: "Fear is the mind-killer."

It's a mantra that's supposed to help remind/help people get through difficult (panic-causing) situations.
Yes, calming down because "God is a go-to crutch" will help calm down... but then what?
In Dune, the mantra is used to calm down... so that you can do what needs to be done to get through the situation.

So on one side, you can use God as a crutch when things get tough... and then what? Rely on yourself anyway? Who's going to do what needs doing to fix it? God?

On the other side, you can use the mantra to remind yourself that fear is temporary. Then work on a way to do-whatever-needs-doing in order to get through the situation.

The more you use God as a crutch - the more likely you'll be to not act when you need to act (because you'll be focusing on God as your crutch.)
The more you focus on doing what you need to do - the more you'll get done (because you're not focusing on anything else.)

Of course, I'm not claiming that this will work for everyone. I'm only claiming that it works for me, and those who may think similarly-enough to the way I think.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-05-2019 11:44 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 566 of 789 (854564)
06-10-2019 1:55 PM


Every now and then I feel I must make this point: I strongly object to Phat's arguments about there being no evidence or reason or reality for our belief in God and Christ, that is a very offensive notion to me: we can't know anything without evidence, and nothing we actually know can be unreal or against reason. God is a Spirit, we can't discern spiritual reality with our senses, but we do have a spiritual sense which is awakened when we get born again. It's already there in some form in most people anyway, shreds of it that remain from the Fall, although those in whom it is strongest tend not to discern the reality of God, instead discerning all kinds of supernatural/occultic realities. Sometimes they mistake these for God.

And there IS physical evidence for God but to appreciate it you have to believe the people who witnessed it. Consider that evidence for just about anything you think you know comes through witnesses anyway. How do you believe the evidence in a criminal case, or an argument for evolution etc.? By believing what you are told, such as what is written down in reports or described in the films on the subject in the case of criminal investigations. You yourself haven't seen the evidence, you have to believe the people who have.

And the Bible is full of evidence of God. Jesus did all kinds of miracles to prove that He is the Messiah, and the Old Testament reports on all kinds of miracles that demonstrate the reality of God. The protection of the lamb's blood on the doorposts from the angel of death, the parting of the Red Sea, the pillars of smoke and fire, the manna from heaven, the fall of the walls of Jericho, the dew on Gideon's fleece, the raising of Samuel from the dead, the miracles of Elijah and Elisha etc etc etc etc etc. As with most evidence for anything, to benefit from it you have to believe those who tell you about it. Since the Bible is evidence for God the unbelievers knock themselves out "proving" that none of the witnesses actually existed, so they don't have to believe them.

But that's our evidence for those who DO believe: the reality of the biblical witnesses just as described there, and the trustworthiness of their witness reports.

All this speculative stuff that people engage in isn't necessary since we have witness reports of evidence of God.

And I certainly didn't come to believe in God through any kind of emotional need for God and that's another thing that makes no sense to me. You can't believe in something because you need it to be true. It's either true or it isn't.

Oh well.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 567 by Tangle, posted 06-10-2019 2:49 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 568 by Stile, posted 06-10-2019 2:50 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6918
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 567 of 789 (854577)
06-10-2019 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 566 by Faith
06-10-2019 1:55 PM


Faith writes:

Oh well.

Oh well indeed.

What you believe are your own feelings. Your beliefs are only evidence of your belief. it's purely subjective - it only applies to you.

This should be obvious because even amongst believers of the same faith, you believe different things. You, Phat, GDR all have different and personal 'evidence'. If witnesses in court gave evidence that was different, we'd rightly question and doubt it.

To be real evidence it must be demonstrable to a third party. As a third party to you Phat and GDR all I can say is that you appear to genuinely believe something.

I don't share your beliefs although I did have similar beliefs when I was growing up so I do know how real they can seem. But it's having lost that belief that means I know that the experience of belief is a delusion.

If you have that belief it's impossible to see all the piles of actual, real and demonstrable to third party evidence that exists and is readily accessible. We talk about it endlessly here but it doesn't touch the sides of a believer's mind because the belief prevents it. It is a delusion but it's the nature of a delusion that the deluded can't see it. Go to any mental hospital and talk to the men that think they're Jesus and Mussolini and you see delusion first hand. No amount of evidence can shift their belief.

Anyway, no Faith. You belief is not evidence for God and neither is a book.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 566 by Faith, posted 06-10-2019 1:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3526
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 568 of 789 (854579)
06-10-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 566 by Faith
06-10-2019 1:55 PM


Faith writes:

And there IS physical evidence for God but to appreciate it you have to believe the people who witnessed it.

What strange sort of physical evidence needs to be believed before you can appreciate it?

That doesn't sound physical.
It sounds like the opposite of physical.
It sounds extremely subjective.

Like the kind of 'evidence' that's always wrong, and only put forward by those who are trying to convince others of malarkey.

How do you believe the evidence in a criminal case, or an argument for evolution etc.? By believing what you are told, such as what is written down in reports or described in the films on the subject in the case of criminal investigations.

No. Not by believing what I'm told.
By testing it against actual physical evidence.
Just because you don't do your homework doesn't mean everyone else is the same.

All this speculative stuff that people engage in isn't necessary since we have witness reports of evidence of God.

Witness reports of evidence is speculative stuff.

You can't believe in something because you need it to be true.

Sure you can. Lots of folks believe having a baby will fix a marriage.

It's either true or it isn't.

Agreed.
The problem is that there's no answer sheet that tells us which is which.
So, we have to figure it out.

Testing against reality works - progress is made. More progress than ever before, even.

One would think that if there was a God with the answer sheet, then having a relationship with Him would help progress.
But.. believing in God has led to the same amount of progress as not even trying - minimal progress in some areas, and large-scale stagnation in others.

Believing in God for progress was tried... for hundreds (thousands?) of years. Then - testing against reality was tried... more progress in under 100 years than eons of anything previous.

One more test that leads us to knowing that God does not exist - as results including God are equivalent to results including nothing at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 566 by Faith, posted 06-10-2019 1:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 569 by Faith, posted 06-10-2019 2:58 PM Stile has responded
 Message 573 by Faith, posted 06-10-2019 3:24 PM Stile has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 569 of 789 (854582)
06-10-2019 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 568 by Stile
06-10-2019 2:50 PM


blood on doorposts is physical
pillars of smoke and fire are physical
parting of Red Sea is physical
manna from heaven is physical. They picked it up off the ground.
There were also quails God sent when they complained about the manna: they littered the ground too. Real quails. Physical.
Dew on fleece physical. Wet stuff.
All the rest were physical too.

I see you are now raising other objections. But my point is that the Bible is full of witnessed physical evidence for God and I believe it and if you don't, so be it.

You say you test the evidence in a TV show about a criminal investigation yourself. You have the forensic equipment for every test they make? No, you don't test any of it, you can't. You believe what they tell you about THEIR tests. They give you pictures too.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 568 by Stile, posted 06-10-2019 2:50 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 570 by Stile, posted 06-10-2019 3:10 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 571 by Tangle, posted 06-10-2019 3:16 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 572 by PaulK, posted 06-10-2019 3:22 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 574 by Stile, posted 06-10-2019 3:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3526
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 570 of 789 (854584)
06-10-2019 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by Faith
06-10-2019 2:58 PM


Faith writes:

But my point is that the Bible is full of witnessed physical evidence for God and I believe it and if you don't, so be it.

Your confusion is puzzling. It doesn't seem like a very difficult concept.

"Witnessed" physical evidence is not physical evidence.
Your conclusion in finding a sense of finality when you believe it and I don't displays that you do understand The Bible is not on the same level as physical evidence.

Physical evidence doesn't have an acceptable "agree to disagree" closing.


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 Message 569 by Faith, posted 06-10-2019 2:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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