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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1276 of 2081 (858102)
07-16-2019 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1275 by Stile
07-16-2019 1:38 PM


Re: chances
Stile writes:

We have, in fact, searched for God's existence a great deal more and a great deal longer than the vast majority of other non-evidenced concepts we all seem just fine with saying we know they do not exist.


We have searched for God "enough" to be pretty sure that He doesn't exist. When we're looking for a really big unevidenced concept, it takes a lot more looking than a McDonalds menu.

Stile writes:

If you think there's no value in being able to consistently and reasonably ignore irrational ideas... that's up to you.


You're moving the goalposts. I can ignore God quite nicely without pretending to "know" that He doesn't exist.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1275 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 1:38 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1277 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 2:11 PM ringo has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3763
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1277 of 2081 (858103)
07-16-2019 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1276 by ringo
07-16-2019 1:51 PM


Re: chances
ringo writes:

When we're looking for a really big unevidenced concept, it takes a lot more looking than a McDonalds menu.

I agree.

Which is why "thousands of years" is a lot more than "5 minutes."

You're moving the goalposts. I can ignore God quite nicely without pretending to "know" that He doesn't exist.

I'm remaining consistent.

I ignore all irrational concepts for the same reason - there is no evidence to accept them in the first place.
This leads me to know that all irrational concepts do not exist. Like banana keys and crab chairs.

If you cannot know that God exists - then to remain consistent - you cannot know that your keys are not bananas, and your chair is not a crab.
You cannot use the word "know" for anything at all as there is always an irrational (non-evidenced) concept that could add doubt to the conclusion of the knowledge.

I simply do not allow any irrational concepts to add doubt to the conclusion.

I know my keys do not exist as bananas and I only think they're keys as per the currently available information.
or
"I know my keys are not bananas."

I know my chair does not exist as a crab and I only think it's a chair as per the currently available information.
or
"I know my chair is not a crab."

For the same reasoning:
I know God does not exist in some equally-non-evidenced form and I only think God doesn't exist as per the currently available information.
or
"I know that God does not exist."

If you claim that such a phrasing is not adequate for God... can you identify why it is actually adequate for banana-keys or crab-chairs?
Or do you also refuse to claim that you know your keys are not bananas?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1276 by ringo, posted 07-16-2019 1:51 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1289 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 5:05 PM Stile has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1278 of 2081 (858106)
07-16-2019 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1268 by Stile
07-16-2019 12:26 PM


Re: You can't know God through any physical methods
Stile writes:

Evidence is compelling to all reasonable reviews. Always.

And according to scripture, belief is *never* compelling to all or even a majority of humans. Belief will ultimately be embraced by less than 50%.

And there are several arguments in support of Gods existenc. I will bring them up when I get back from the chiropractor...I was on vacation for two days and after all that driving my back needs a tuneup.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1268 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 12:26 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1279 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 4:00 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 1290 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 5:07 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3763
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1279 of 2081 (858107)
07-16-2019 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1278 by Thugpreacha
07-16-2019 3:45 PM


Re: You can't know God through any physical methods
Thugpreacha writes:

Belief will ultimately be embraced by less than 50%.

All humans embrace belief.

It's only "belief in God" that's on the decline.
It used to be much higher.
Now it's much lower.

It may rise again, even.

This has nothing to do with knowledge.

And there are several arguments in support of Gods existence.

Sounds great.
If there's evidence along with them - they will force a change in my conclusion.
If not - they won't change anything, though.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1278 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-16-2019 3:45 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1280 by PaulK, posted 07-16-2019 4:10 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15315
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 1280 of 2081 (858108)
07-16-2019 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1279 by Stile
07-16-2019 4:00 PM


Re: You can't know God through any physical methods
While it is getting on a bit now, J L Mackie’s The Miracle of Theism is a classic refutation of common arguments for God.

You can find it online at Scribd


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1279 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 4:00 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1281 of 2081 (858109)
07-16-2019 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1273 by Stile
07-16-2019 1:19 PM


Re: chances
GDR writes:

I have told you where to look. It is in the hearts of minds of human creatures.

Stile writes:

Yes, you have.
And we've looked there.
There is no evidence of God.


Just how did you look there?
GDR writes:

However, just as you can't see a thought you don't see God in the way that you describe.

Stile writes:

But we an see the effect of thoughts.
Like me thinking of typing and submitting this post - the effect is that you can see this post.
You cannot see my thought.
But you can certainly see it's effects.

How do we "see God?" or "see the effects of God?"


We all see the effects of our ideas all the time. I see God as being that still small voice in us that causes to have hearts that respond to the call to perform acts of self-giving love.

We can't know whether or not that call on our hearts is from a deity or not. We can see the effects of it though.

Stile writes:

How?
All the evidence shows is that people develop rules to live in social groups.
Some of those rules are so basic that they are required for social grouping.

Even rats follow "the Golden Rule" within their social circles:

So what? Speaking more as a Christian than as simply a theist; it is the Christian view that we are to spread the gene of self-giving love so what you describe is what I would expect.

I would add though that self-giving love as described by the Golden Rule goes well beyond just caring about those in our social grouping, or even our gene pool for that matter.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1273 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 1:19 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1282 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 4:30 PM GDR has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3763
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1282 of 2081 (858112)
07-16-2019 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1281 by GDR
07-16-2019 4:19 PM


Re: chances
GDR writes:

Just how did you look there?

By observing the evidence.

We all see the effects of our ideas all the time. I see God as being that still small voice in us that causes to have hearts that respond to the call to perform acts of self-giving love.
We can't know whether or not that call on our hearts is from a deity or not. We can see the effects of it though.

That's the thing, though - isn't it?

Everything has specific effects that only it can give - that's how we know things exist.

You need electrical components to form a CPU and software to gain access to the internet.
We see the effects of the electrical components and the CPU and the software as we access the internet.
Therefore, we know the electrical components and the CPU and the software exist.

What are the effects of God that exist that are not otherwise already explained?

You may very well see God as being the still small voice.
I just see people being people doing people things as people always have.

And if we look at the evidence - there's none for God, and lots for people.

So what?

So - you offered "The Golden Rule" as an effect of God.
I showed that "The Golden Rule" is simply an effect of people being socially inclined - even rats have "The Golden Rule."

I showed you that there is no evidence for God in "The Golden Rule."

Speaking more as a Christian than as simply a theist; it is the Christian view that we are to spread the gene of self-giving love so what you describe is what I would expect.

Speaking is nice.
But evidence is what leads to knowledge.

Show some evidence.
Without that - I know that God does not exist.

I would add though that self-giving love as described by the Golden Rule goes well beyond just caring about those in our social grouping, or even our gene pool for that matter.

I agree that people are very capable of extremely high (un-countable) levels of self-giving Love that go beyond any and all "rules."
I think this is people being people doing people things.
You think this is from God.

There is evidence for people being people doing people things.
There is no evidence for God.

I know that God does not exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1281 by GDR, posted 07-16-2019 4:19 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1283 by GDR, posted 07-16-2019 5:23 PM Stile has responded
 Message 1284 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-16-2019 10:14 PM Stile has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1283 of 2081 (858113)
07-16-2019 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1282 by Stile
07-16-2019 4:30 PM


Re: chances
Stile writes:

By observing the evidence.


All the evidence you give is by looking at results. I can just as easily look at the results involving thoughts of self giving love and claim that it proves there is a god.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1282 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 4:30 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1286 by Stile, posted 07-17-2019 9:27 AM GDR has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12677
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1284 of 2081 (858120)
07-16-2019 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1282 by Stile
07-16-2019 4:30 PM


Re: chances
Stile writes:

The idea that Jesus or God exists and is providing purpose for us is a negative for me. It brings me worry and fear. I do not like the idea of being created for a purpose by a supreme being. I find the idea controlling and it gives me a sense of claustrophobia. It makes me feel like our lives are set up as a mouse-and-cheese maze. The cheese being the purpose God or Jesus provides for us, and us being the mouse.
I feel much more relaxed and comfortable with the idea of imagining my own cheese, my own maze, and my own 'mouse' (me) even.

I would thus argue that you have a built-in bias towards finding God. You claim that its a straight forward matter of evidence, but popular apologetic teaching suggests that No One seeks God and that collectively the people turn away from Him.
Show some evidence.
Without that - I know that God does not exist.

It seems to me that many people talked themselves out of believing in God.

It is claimed that the universe itself can spontaneously create itself without need of a Creator. (Even though the theory was birthed in the minds of men) Even though the Bible tells us that we were made in the image of God, humans by nature have historically and persistently acted always in ultimate defiance of such an authority...behaving the way that you suggest you would prefer to do...make your own maze, cheese, and even mouse. The whole idea of proving God is itself a way to thumb your nose at the seeming inability of god to defend himself and thus allowing human wisdom its nefarious place upon the throne.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1282 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 4:30 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1287 by Stile, posted 07-17-2019 9:38 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1278
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1285 of 2081 (858124)
07-17-2019 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1238 by Sarah Bellum
07-10-2019 8:48 AM


Re: chances
Sarah Bellum writes:

All life builds copies (or new versions) of itself, but that is, presumably, not quite the same thing.


You seem to have forgotten the alleged first life-form, which, according to atheist folklore, formed naturally from inanimate matter.

That is, you claim that before intelligence can exist, there must be some intelligent agency in existence!

That’s right - life can only come from life and intelligence can only come from intelligence.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1238 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-10-2019 8:48 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1291 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 5:10 PM Dredge has responded
 Message 1299 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-17-2019 11:12 PM Dredge has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3763
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1286 of 2081 (858129)
07-17-2019 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1283 by GDR
07-16-2019 5:23 PM


Re: chances
GDR writes:

I can just as easily look at the results involving thoughts of self giving love and claim that it proves there is a god.

Really?

I can prove that people exist, and that people have feelings, and that people are capable of extraordinary things that some people would call miracles.

And you can "just as easily" prove there is a god?

Feel free.
I'm waiting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1283 by GDR, posted 07-16-2019 5:23 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1288 by GDR, posted 07-17-2019 10:48 AM Stile has responded
 Message 1292 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-17-2019 5:33 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3763
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1287 of 2081 (858133)
07-17-2019 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1284 by Thugpreacha
07-16-2019 10:14 PM


Re: chances
Thugpreacha writes:

I would thus argue that you have a built-in bias towards finding God.

I would agree with this.
But I think it's because of our human-social-intelligent nature. We tend to make up answers if none exist.
This doesn't add any evidence for God existing.

You claim that its a straight forward matter of evidence, but popular apologetic teaching suggests that No One seeks God and that collectively the people turn away from Him.

If you can define/explain/show another valid/practical/useful/reliable way to "know things" that doesn't include 'a straightforward matter of evidence' - I'm all ears.
If you can't... then yeah, "knowing" things is a straightforward matter of evidence.

Regardless of what popular apologetic teachings suggest.

Even though the Bible tells us that we were made in the image of God, humans by nature have historically and persistently acted always in ultimate defiance of such an authority...behaving the way that you suggest you would prefer to do...make your own maze, cheese, and even mouse. The whole idea of proving God is itself a way to thumb your nose at the seeming inability of god to defend himself and thus allowing human wisdom its nefarious place upon the throne.

I do want to make my own maze, cheese and even mouse.
But you don't get to assign a reasoning on me for doing so.
The fact that you attempt such an absurd notion implies that your interest in "finding the truth" is low and your interest in "protecting your own feelings" is high.

I, actually, am the only one capable of assigning a reason for me doing what I do.
It's up to you to believe me or not. I can't force you to think I'm being honest.
My reason for behaving as I do is not to thumb my nose at god and invest in human wisdom.
In fact, I wish that there was more than human wisdom available to us - think of what we could learn!!
But - we've tried that, and it's led to something called "The Dark Ages" - filled with stagnation, corruption, abuse and no progress whatsoever.
Then, after we try focusing more on what we can "know" (rationally - by way of evidence)... we progress onto things like the industrial revolution and the electronic age and all the prosperity we now enjoy.

My reason for doing as I do is not rooted in some desire to defy authority.
I have no issues with authority figures. I think for the most part they deserve respect and admiration.
My reason for doing as I do is simply because it seems to be what works.

Show something that works better, and I'll happily join in. Why wouldn't I?

Of course - if all you have is unreliable, non-evidenced, known-to-lead-to-stagnation,-corruption,-abuse-and-no-progress-whatsoever, easily-shown-to-be-wrong victim-blaming-attempts-at-shaming-me-into-agreeing-with-you... well, it's easy to spot the red flags and problems with your position. Why would I ever move in that direction?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1284 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-16-2019 10:14 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1288 of 2081 (858137)
07-17-2019 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1286 by Stile
07-17-2019 9:27 AM


Re: chances
Stile writes:


I can prove that people exist, and that people have feelings, and that people are capable of extraordinary things that some people would call miracles.

And you can "just as easily" prove there is a god?

Feel free.
I'm waiting.


I can prove that people exisy and that people have emotions and are capable of empathy. That requires something beyond a collection of mindless chemicals. Therefore there is a god.

I know that is isn't proof to the point that I can say that I know there is a god, but I'm using the same logic that you are using to come to your conclusion.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1286 by Stile, posted 07-17-2019 9:27 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1300 by Stile, posted 07-18-2019 8:11 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1289 of 2081 (858140)
07-17-2019 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1277 by Stile
07-16-2019 2:11 PM


Re: chances
Stile writes:

I ignore all irrational concepts for the same reason - there is no evidence to accept them in the first place.


But sharkfin soup at McDonalds is not an irrational concept. It happens to not be on the menu and you won't find it on the menu if you search for thousands of years - but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all. It just means you're looking in the wrong place.

Similarly, God is not an inherently irrational concept.

So they don't belong in the same discussion with banana keys or crab chairs. You definitely have two sets of goalposts there.


All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1277 by Stile, posted 07-16-2019 2:11 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1302 by Stile, posted 07-18-2019 8:28 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1290 of 2081 (858141)
07-17-2019 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1278 by Thugpreacha
07-16-2019 3:45 PM


Re: You can't know God through any physical methods
Phat writes:

Belief will ultimately be embraced by less than 50%.


I asked you before and you didn't answer: How do you reconcile that idea with the idea that God with give everybody another chance?

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1278 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-16-2019 3:45 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
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