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Author Topic:   Down To The Wire 2012 >>POLITICS<<
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


(1)
Message 51 of 143 (676526)
10-23-2012 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
10-23-2012 9:36 AM


Re: Debate 3
Mittens also came across as an idiot, thanks to some actual zingers from Obama:
"This isn't a game of battleship."
"We also have fewer horses and bayonets."
"We have aircraft carriers, which actually have airplanes land on them, and ships that go underwater called nuclear submarines."
Romney came across as absolutely clueless with regard to the military - his version of "STRONG MILITARY, RAR" is apparently "THROW MONEY AT IT," which is particularly ironic from the asshat who tries to center his campaign around lowering the national debt.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 10-23-2012 9:36 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Taq, posted 10-23-2012 5:51 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


(1)
Message 59 of 143 (676702)
10-24-2012 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dr Adequate
10-24-2012 6:57 PM


Looking at the polls, it seems quite probable that Obama will win the electoral college vote by a landslide and also lose the popular vote.
What would be your opinions under those circumstances?
As long as Obama wins, I don't particularly care.
I don't have a lot of faith in democracy - wolf/sheep metaphors aside, my opinion of the intelligence or ethical quality of by far the vast majority of Americans is piss poor.
Democracy is a useful tool to limit violent revolution by emphasizing a system for popular change and gaining public "buy-in" through voting, but I'm unconvinced as to its qualities as a system of government. America has not prospered because it is a democracy - it has prospered because it happens to sit on top of ample natural resources and is bordered by oceans and friendly/impotent neighbors.
I'm not terribly excited about Obama, I certainly don't like all of his policies.
But I like him a hell of a lot better than Mitt Money, er, Romney. I don't want Romney to have a chance at nominating Supreme Court justices. And Romney's "budget" plan ("lower taxes" and then "close loopholes" to make the whole thing "budget neutral?" If it doesn't do anything to the budget then why bother enacting it?) only works for people who aren't paying attention, or who have an IQ below room temperature.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-24-2012 6:57 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-25-2012 9:38 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


(1)
Message 72 of 143 (676838)
10-25-2012 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by onifre
10-25-2012 11:49 AM


Re: A House Divided
Well we've had the civil rights movement, and the anti-discrimination laws. That's seemed to work due to majority rule.
Not quite.
Civil rights have had to go through the court system against popular public opinion before becoming endorsed by the majority.
Miscegenation laws were not eliminated due to majority rule - they were ruled unconstitutional by the courts.
Anti-homosexuality laws and anti-sodomy laws were not eliminated due to majority rule - they were ruled unconstitutional by the courts.
School segregation...well, you get the picture.
Sometimes majority rule works - but the "two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner" metaphor is accurate: majority rule leads to the persecution of minorities. That's why the US system isn't a straight democracy, and also why it's not just a representative republic - it's a constitutional representative republic, which means that there is a mechanism by which an oppressed minority can circumvent majority rule to force equal treatment.
overall progress has been made and it's been mostly due to majority rule, or rather the eventual lead up to majority rule.
The key word being eventual. Only after the majority is first forced to give way to the oppressed minority, and then gets to stew for a while and notices that not only did the sky not fall, but those minority folks aren't so bad.
The pattern is that the courts force the majority to bend knee...and the forced equal treatment, over a generation or two, causes a greater social integration whereby the newer generations have grown up thinking that equality is the natural order (which it should have been all along), and become the majority as their bigot elders die off.
Forgive me if this does not cause me to cheer the glories of democracy.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by onifre, posted 10-25-2012 11:49 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by onifre, posted 10-25-2012 1:28 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 73 of 143 (676840)
10-25-2012 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by New Cat's Eye
10-25-2012 12:45 PM


I'm not saying that businesses cannot succeed with high taxes. I'm saying that a reduction in these taxes could help small to medium sized business grow by reducing their cost to operate.
That depends entirely on the taxes. A tax increase on profits over $100 million will not affect a new start-up business, for instance. Not even a little.
Not all tax policy changes are equal. It's rather difficult to talk about "higher taxes" as a generalized entity when modern tax policy is clearly separated into income brackets and various targeted subsidies and incentives.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-25-2012 12:45 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-25-2012 1:00 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 76 of 143 (676847)
10-25-2012 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by New Cat's Eye
10-25-2012 1:00 PM


Do you see why someone might think that the bugetly neutral lowering of taxes and closing of loopholes could be worthwhile?
It could...but I don't think that lowering taxes is particularly appropriate anyway, even if closing loopholes would be worthwhile. If we're talking about lowering the deficit, we don't need budget-neutral, we need budget-positive.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-25-2012 1:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-25-2012 2:26 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 81 of 143 (676860)
10-25-2012 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by onifre
10-25-2012 1:28 PM


Re: A House Divided
But it was endorced by the majority. In fact, those opposed to ending segregation were in the absolute minority. So much so that the military was sent into the south to take action against this small minority of racist that tried their best to hold on to their views.
Was it? Do you have data to support that? I'm asking because this challenges my existing understanding of popular opinion at that time, and that keeping races segregated was not something the majority endorsed. Remember that sending in the National Guard was simply the result of enforcing the ruling of the court - you don't vote on where to send the Guard; they go to enforce the law, protect public order, and to reinforce the mainline military.
You're only stating a natural human response to culture clashes. It wasn't just held for blacks or what you're calling "minorities". Many European cultures were not well received in the US when they first arrived. Forcing them to live together brought the worst in people, but then lead up to the eventual acceptance of those immigrants.
It's happened for everyone, "minorities" are not special in that sense.
Apologies for any misunderstanding, but when I use the term "minorities," I am in fact referring to any subgroup distinct from the "majority," particularly when persecuted by the majority. This at various points in time would apply to the Irish, to Jews, to blacks, to Catholics, to Atheists, to Scientologists, and so on.
You're only stating a natural human response to culture clashes.
Indeed...but the fact that it is "natural" does not make it ethically acceptable. The pack will always instinctively try to identify and exclude the "other," but if establishing a just and fair society is actually as important to us as we collectively tend to say that it is, there is no place for acting upon that instinct.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by onifre, posted 10-25-2012 1:28 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by onifre, posted 10-25-2012 1:57 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


(1)
Message 86 of 143 (676896)
10-25-2012 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by onifre
10-25-2012 1:57 PM


Re: A House Divided
I guess I'm having trouble with what you're calling a majority rule and what I'm thinking about.
I may be wrong but, if the Supreme Court of the US and the president of the US are in favor of integration, isn't that in the political democratic sense the majority?
...no.
The "majority" when we're talking about things like "majority rule" and "democracy" is popular opinion. Average guy on the street.
The President and Supreme Court go against popular opinion all the time.
I wasn't talking about each individual opinion, as widely different as that may be. I'm talking about court rulings and political majority rule. I think you're refering to majority opinion at the individual level.
In which case we may agree.
As I said in a previous post, this is why the US is not a pure democracy, or even a pure representative republic - because true "majority rule" results in tyranny.
Being that there is no one particular culture or ethnicity ever truly in charge of the whole US - Go to Miami and white people are not in the majority. Here in NY either, and I'm sure in many parts of the US latinos and blacks are the major majority - There's no point in distinguishing "majorities" by their color or ethnicity.
Indeed...but opinions can still define a majority or minority, and color/ethnicity is one of the possible targets of an unjust majority.
Minorities don't stay separate. They overlap. When enough people of groups x y and z get together and decide they don't like group c, we have a case of persecution of the minority, even if groups x y and z are themselves different minorities. Combined, they can still constitute a plurality or majority. That's what tends to happen in real life - popular opinion is a series of layers of Venn diagrams, and sometimes one group (which inevitably encompasses many smaller groups) gangs up on a single small group that's outside of their majority group.
There is no way to stop normal human behavior in the same sense as abstinance only programs don't stop teenagers from fucking.
That depends. Some base urges are easily curtailed - most people, for example, are not violent felons, rapists, thieves, etc. Racism and other forms of bigotry are diminishing, slowly - progress has been made on multiple civil rights fronts over the past several decades that would suggest that we can learn to accept the "other" as part of the greater whole.
Everyone segregates everyone for a while when the new culture is introduced to the old culture. I see it here in NY where white hipsters are moving into black neighborhoods. There is an initial culture clash, then an inevitable acceptance.
People seem to always behave the same as far as I've seen.
Not all of those clashes are the same. Nobody is suggesting that we all need to hold hands and sing under a rainbow, but modern "culture clashes" involve lynch mobs a lot less frequently than they did a few decades ago.
Edited by Rahvin, : Spelling...

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by onifre, posted 10-25-2012 1:57 PM onifre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by xongsmith, posted 10-25-2012 4:08 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
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