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Author Topic:   Baby Theresa
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 16 of 40 (317051)
06-02-2006 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by iano
06-02-2006 10:26 AM


Re: I am not - therefore I don't think
I would take the view that organ donation is ethical only after the point of death. That is stone death.
The organs have to be alive to be donated, so it's not clear to me how you expect this to be a useful guide. By the time we could harvest organs according to your guidelines, they would be dead and useless.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1962 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 17 of 40 (317063)
06-02-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by crashfrog
06-02-2006 4:29 PM


Re: I am not - therefore I don't think
In which case it seems the only alternative is to go and play God.

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jmrozi1
Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 79
From: Maryland
Joined: 12-09-2005


Message 18 of 40 (317151)
06-03-2006 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by iano
06-02-2006 5:53 PM


Can man play God?
And what does it mean to play God? I'm not sure that defining life is playing the role of God, especially considering that the English language is a manmade construct.
It is arguably impossible to perfectly define a concept with an evolving language. What we are trying to do is merely to refine the definition of human life so that it can adapt to the needs of an evolving culture.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1962 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 19 of 40 (317181)
06-03-2006 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by jmrozi1
06-03-2006 2:32 AM


Re: Can man play God?
And what does it mean to play God? I'm not sure that defining life is playing the role of God, especially considering that the English language is a manmade construct.
Defining life is not playing God. Supposing that the definition of life represents what life actually is and then using the defination rather than the actuality in order to terminate it is playing God.
It is arguably impossible to perfectly define a concept with an evolving language. What we are trying to do is merely to refine the definition of human life so that it can adapt to the needs of an evolving culture.
Exactly. I would put it this way. It is impossible to define life (be definite) using a tool which is indefinite (language). "We don't know what life is but will use a pseudo-definitiveness in order to do that with life which suits our book at the time" Act as if it is for us to decide on anothers life. But it is no ones to take away. Not the parents, nor the doctors nor the ethicists. When they do they are playing at being God.
Ignoble or noble it matters not
Edited by iano, : insert second quote as originally intended

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rgb
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 40 (317196)
06-03-2006 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jmrozi1
06-01-2006 3:32 PM


jmrozi1 writes
quote:
A number of professional ethicists were called on by the press to comment...
This particular case disturbed me because the so-called professional ethicists were the local religious leaders rather than philosophers. In fact, this was not an isolated incidence. Just about everytime a so-called moral issue comes up in politics, religious leaders are called upon to make the call on the issues. This is disturbing because religious leaders are anything but moral leaders or ethicists.

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rgb
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 40 (317198)
06-03-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by iano
06-03-2006 9:14 AM


Re: Can man play God?
iano writes
quote:
Supposing that the definition of life represents what life actually is and then using the defination rather than the actuality in order to terminate it is playing God.
Perhaps you would like to give us the "real" definition of life?
quote:
It is impossible to define life (be definite) using a tool which is indefinite (language). "We don't know what life is but will use a pseudo-definitiveness in order to do that with life which suits our book at the time" Act as if it is for us to decide on anothers life. But it is no ones to take away. Not the parents, nor the doctors nor the ethicists. When they do they are playing at being God.
But how else can we define life? Your statement implies that we cannot define what life is based on the tools that we have therefore should not try to do so. This is, I think, a nonpractical way to deal with reality, especially when we are not just dealing with just one being trapped in limbo. This "person" who so far cannot be defined as alive or dead could potentially save many other lives that we know for sure are alive.
quote:
Ignoble or noble it matters not
While I agree with this statement, I don't see what it has to do with the issue. Ignoble and noble are just words. When dealing with reality, there are much more at stake than just trying to live up to these words. The continued existence of a person or persons for example.

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 Message 19 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 9:14 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 2:12 PM rgb has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1962 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 22 of 40 (317222)
06-03-2006 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by rgb
06-03-2006 12:24 PM


Can man play God? He does all the time
Perhaps you would like to give us the "real" definition of life?
I don't suppose that you can define life at least not in any objective sense. Sure you can have all the subjective definitions that you want: whatever one suits you best should suffice.
But how else can we define life? Your statement implies that we cannot define what life is based on the tools that we have therefore should not try to do so.
I said you cannot define life based on the tools that you have. That means life in undefinable in any objective sense. Now if you chose to circumvent this fact and terminate the 'lives' of those who do not fit your subjective definition of life then God you are playing. Playing God means acting as if objective definitions were available which would make it possible to know for sure the difference between life and non-life.
This "person" who so far cannot be defined as alive or dead could potentially save many other lives that we know for sure are alive.
That is the kind of playing God decision that gets made when one decides to play God. Everyone has to chose for themselves whether they want to play this game or not. It will always be a game.
there are much more at stake than just trying to live up to these words. The continued existence of a person or persons for example.
Which person did you have in mind for continued existance? The ones who you subjectively define as persons presumably. I'm not saying the our subjective definitions are useless and that no attempt should be made to work with them. But when it comes to life and death of persons you really do not know what you are doing. You may think the benefits outweight the unknowns. More at stake than what precisely? You do not know in fact. And when you decide you are playing God.

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 Message 21 by rgb, posted 06-03-2006 12:24 PM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1962 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 23 of 40 (317224)
06-03-2006 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by rgb
06-03-2006 12:15 PM


Men are from Mars Hill
This particular case disturbed me because the so-called professional ethicists were the local religious leaders rather than philosophers.
Rather than philosophers? What qualification does a philosopher have to comment which exceeds that of a religious person I wonder

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 Message 20 by rgb, posted 06-03-2006 12:15 PM rgb has replied

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jmrozi1
Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 79
From: Maryland
Joined: 12-09-2005


Message 24 of 40 (317640)
06-04-2006 3:29 PM


Defining Life, Playing God, and Religious Leaders as Moral Experts
Iano writes: It is impossible to define life (be definite) using a tool which is indefinite (language).
This is similar to saying that you can’t define a three dimensional space if you live in a two dimensional one. Consider that your world is the two-dimensional surface of a white piece of paper, and a three dimensional black sphere passes through it. What you would see is a small circular black dot which gets larger until it reaches some maximum diameter, then gets smaller until it disappears completely. Describing what you saw would be describing this three-dimensional object in the context of your dimension, which can be done without having any knowledge of three dimensional space.
In the same sense, life can be defined in the reality allowed by our language. The reason I mentioned earlier that it was arguably impossible is that we cannot predict future applications of its definition. However, not attempting to define life for that reason would be akin to not writing the constitution because it won’t be able to take everything in the future into account.
Iano writes: Defining life is not playing God. Supposing that the definition of life represents what life actually is and then using the defination rather than the actuality in order to terminate it is playing God.
We need to have a definition of life for legal and medical purposes. When a person marks on their driver’s license that they’re an organ donor, when they die we usually take their organs. Generally, when a person’s heart stops beating, we can accept that that person has died. By why is that? Their nails continue to grow, cells continue to replicate, antibodies continue to protect the body, and so on. Life processes are still being continued, yet we still accept that this person has died, and so we take his organs.
But does the beating of a heart signify the life of the person? Of course it doesn’t. Hearts can be grown and stimulated to make it beat, even without the presence of a human host. If it is generally accepted that someone who is brain-dead is legally dead, it shouldn’t be playing god any more than using the person whose heart stopped beating.
Rbq writes: This particular case disturbed me because the so-called professional ethicists were the local religious leaders rather than philosophers.
I tend to agree with this; however, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that they are religious leaders. The US is an unusually religious country; 9 out of 10 people say they believe in a personal God. People generally accept religious leaders as moral experts because people commonly believe that morality can be understood only within the context of religion. However, if we accept the theological conception of right and wrong, we are caught in a dilemma. The following is an argument paraphrased from “The Elements of Moral Philosophy” by James Rachels:
Consider two lines of thought: (1) Right is right because God commands it, and (2) God commands it because it is right.
If you are under the persuasion of the first line of thought, consider that God has commanded us to tell the truth, and therefore telling the truth is right. However, if he commanded us to lie, then lying would be right. You might be tempted to reply, “But God would never command us to lie because it is wrong.” However, by virtue of the command it becomes right, making his commands completely arbitrary. Saying that God’s commands are good would become meaningless. Consider that if “X is good” means “X is commanded by God,” then “God’s commands are good” would mean “Gods commands are commanded by God,” an empty truism.
Under the second persuasion, God commanding something because it is right implies that a standard of morality exists independent of God. He does not make it good by commanding it, but commands it because some logical standard already exists. Even from a religious standpoint, a standard of right and wrong that is independent of God’s will must be accepted.
Though this explains why it isn’t necessary to be religious to be moral, it doesn’t explain why I might be perturbed by highly religious leaders as being the only moral experts. My problem is that it is the tendency of a highly religious person to take the Bible too literally, quoting excerpts and interpreting passages to find instructions rather than a guide towards making their own logical judgment. Consider that religious people condemn homosexuality because it is condemned in the bible: In the Leviticus it says “You may not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination (18:22).” Leviticus also gives lengthy instructions about how to treat leprosy, and provides an elaborate routine for dealing with women who are menstruating. It also states if a priests daughter is a whore she shall be burned alive (21-9), forbids eating fat (7-23), prohibits letting women into church until 42 days after giving birth (12:4-5), states that a beard must have square corners (19:27), and states that we may purchase slaves from neighboring states (25:44).
I would consider it unreasonable to live by these standards. You might argue that some of these standards, such as the comment on slavery, are outdated. However, this of course leads the door right open to saying that it is all outdated. In my mind, the Bible should be used to find inspiration and guidance for your own moral standard, not as the backbone for it. It's easy to confuse this, which is why I think people that base moral judgment purely on logic should be accepted with religious leaders as morality experts.
Edited by jmrozi1, : spelling

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rgb
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 40 (317784)
06-05-2006 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by iano
06-03-2006 2:12 PM


Re: Can man play God? He does all the time
iano writes
quote:
Which person did you have in mind for continued existance?
Between a braindead patient and an otherwise healthy and kicking baby that needs a liver to have a future, I'd go with the second.
quote:
The ones who you subjectively define as persons presumably.
Yes.
quote:
You may think the benefits outweight the unknowns. More at stake than what precisely? You do not know in fact. And when you decide you are playing God.
If you insist, then yes I insist on playing god. And to address specifically to this case, to choose between a braindead baby who has absolutely no future whatsoever and 10 babies who might potentially become the next Guttenbergs or even the next Hitlers, I'd go with the 10 babies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by iano, posted 06-03-2006 2:12 PM iano has replied

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rgb
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 40 (317785)
06-05-2006 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by iano
06-03-2006 2:14 PM


Re: Men are from Mars Hill
iano writes
quote:
Rather than philosophers? What qualification does a philosopher have to comment which exceeds that of a religious person I wonder
Philosophers haven't been indoctrinized. Religious people have.
I have attended countless debates between philosophy professors and local preachers. While I can't say I have agreed with the professors all the time, I'd have to say that they could at least present much more coherent and well thought out arguments than the preachers, all who seemed to ultimately resorted to evangelism once it became clear they couldn't present anything of substance.
Besides, any average joe could start calling himself reverend. Heck, you could even get a certificate to become a genuine reverend over the internet. Philosophers, on the other hand, had to go through many years, if not decades of formal and informal trainings before they could identify themselves as philosophers.

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jmrozi1
Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 79
From: Maryland
Joined: 12-09-2005


Message 27 of 40 (317942)
06-05-2006 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by rgb
06-05-2006 2:32 AM


Re: Men are from Mars Hill
Philosophers haven't been indoctrinized. Religious people have.
Not all religious people have been indoctrinated - consider that some people start their own religion to preach their own beliefs. This does not contradict your statement, but I did want to provide an obvious exception. More importantly, indoctrination implies to a degree that a person is discouraged from independent thought. This is certainly not the case for all religions; in fact, many religions promote the acceptance of other opinions and try to fit them into a greater understanding. Your statement leads to the notion that most religious people are narrow-minded and stubborn, but this isn't the typical religious person; it's just the "louder" one.
As far as philosophers not being indoctrinated, I disagree. Consider that Socrates died by Hemlock for his beliefs. Though Socrates might have been strong enough not to be indoctrinated, he seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Of course, no one in most countries today will be executed for their beliefs; however, I wouldn't assume that philosophy hasn't lost all of its corruption in that respect. Philosophy, just like religion, is imperfect because it is adopted and interpreted by people, and people are imperfect.
Edited by jmrozi1, : grammar

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rgb
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 40 (317950)
06-05-2006 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jmrozi1
06-05-2006 12:43 PM


Re: Men are from Mars Hill
jmrozi1 writes
quote:
Not all religious people have been indoctrinated
This I agree with. However, notice my first post in this thread. I said religious leaders are anything but moral leaders.
quote:
Your statement leads to the notion that most religious people are narrow-minded and stubborn, but this isn't the typical religious person; it's just the "louder" one.
And I rightly maintain what I said. The quiet majority you are referring to have no affect on the rest of us since they have decided to be quiet. The loud ones, though few in number, are usually the ones that are called upon to represent the voices of religion. It's these ones that city officials look to when they have a moral dilemma.
So, as far as I'm concern, these loud ones represent the bulk of the religious communities, including the quiet ones.
quote:
As far as philosophers not being indoctrinated, I disagree. Consider that Socrates died by Hemlock for his beliefs. Though Socrates might have been strong enough not to be indoctrinated, he seems to be the exception rather than the rule.
Yes, and they also had slaves back then. I'm sorry, but I fail to see the connection between philosophers that belonged in ancient times and philosophers today.
I did not say all philosophers today are right at all things. I said that at the very least they have been forced to think through these issues before they are assigned the title. At the very least, they can present coherent arguments without having to resort to appeal to emotions in the crowd below. And at the very least, they have been through years, if not decades, of formal training.
Reverends, on the other hand, most have never had any type of formal training. Any dumbass can start calling himself reverend.
College campuses occasionally have these debates between philosopher professors and local preachers sponsored by student organizations. You should attend these debates. If you know about the logical fallacies, you will very quickly begin to notice that the preachers have absolutely no clue on how to present their arguments without resorting to these fallacies.

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 Message 27 by jmrozi1, posted 06-05-2006 12:43 PM jmrozi1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jmrozi1, posted 06-05-2006 3:39 PM rgb has replied

  
jmrozi1
Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 79
From: Maryland
Joined: 12-09-2005


Message 29 of 40 (318000)
06-05-2006 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by rgb
06-05-2006 1:02 PM


Re: Men are from Mars Hill
Looks like I might actually agree with you for the most part. Still, there are a couple things I wanted to clear up:
Yes, and they also had slaves back then. I'm sorry, but I fail to see the connection between philosophers that belonged in ancient times and philosophers today.
At first I was tempted not to explain this because at the start of the next paragraph you've already acknowledged to a degree the conclusion I wanted to reach. However, I still think it's important to note that history is an excellent indication of the pattern of thought for the present.
You mentioned that "they also had slaves back then," but the truth is that slavery, especially with children, still exists. And even though slavery might be uncommon, racism is certainly easy to find. Depending on where a person grows up, even an intelligent and logical person can become a racist. It's the same thing with philosophers: Back in the day of Socrates, people's minds were being shaped at an impressionable age so that their reasoning would be consistent with the religion of their state/country/community. In the same respect, the minds of the philosophers of today have been shaped to some extent by the beliefs or moral standard of their parents. It would be difficult, or maybe even impossible given the limit to our cognitive power, to argue from a completely objective standpoint. To see this further illustrated see Message 14. My point was that though we may have learned from our mistakes, our minds still have the potential to take the same path.
I said that at the very least they have been forced to think through these issues before they are assigned the title.
I need you to clarify this. A philosopher needs to be nothing more than a student of philosophy to claim this title. A reverend, on the other hand, needs to be ordained. If you're referring to a philosophy professor, obviously the qualifications are a bit stricter, but there are higher level religious positions (the pope, for example) that have stricter qualifications as well.
As far as these debates in college campuses...well, that I agree with. A religious speaker will in general be very preachy, which to the scientifically minded person is like nails on a chalkboard. Philosophers are certainly no exception to this, but are in my opinion much less prone to resorting to these "logical fallacies."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by rgb, posted 06-05-2006 1:02 PM rgb has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1962 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 30 of 40 (318002)
06-05-2006 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by rgb
06-05-2006 2:24 AM


Re: Can man play God? He does all the time
If you insist, then yes I insist on playing god.
Okay. Your choice.

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 Message 25 by rgb, posted 06-05-2006 2:24 AM rgb has not replied

  
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