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Author Topic:   Morality without god
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 696 of 1221 (693538)
03-17-2013 12:13 PM


Hi I'm new to this forum, this is my first post and I hope I can make it count.
Morality seems very obviously to be an emergent quality of any social creature, we cam see it very clearly in social mammals (dogs etc) all the way down to insects (self sacrificing Brazillian worker ants for example Science | AAAS )
Of course if it is a emergent quality of a society and not something Devine which is set in stone we would expect to see it change and develop with the society and that things which were once considered moral would fall to the way side (for example slavery and genocide being allowed within the bible, and emergent civil rights for different races, sexualitys and genders in our own society)
So that'd be my stance - very curious to hear any reply anyone may have.

Replies to this message:
 Message 697 by Tangle, posted 03-17-2013 12:55 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied
 Message 698 by Faith, posted 03-17-2013 6:05 PM GrimSqueaker has replied
 Message 700 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-18-2013 3:04 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 739 of 1221 (693651)
03-19-2013 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 698 by Faith
03-17-2013 6:05 PM


Delighted to see I could respark such an interesting debate, sorry for the lag in reply but it was Paddys weekend and I am Irish - sometimes being Irish is more important than being Athiest :-) (who can resist vomiting green good dye)
I'm kinda a geek, I love good stories and HATE stories with obvious plot holes, so let me just lay out all the threads of Faith's argument and make sure I have it right. You claim;
-ur god has the power and the will to flood the entire Earth (where'd the water come from btw) and KILL millions of people who displease hi
-is also willing to intervene in human affairs to the point of nearly wiping out all of humanity
-is bothered to some extent by slavery (I really don't see that but I will accept it for the moment)
BUT he lacks the power or will to stop slavery outright? It's not even made a sin but if I was him I'd bring some first born of Egypt Angel of Death stuff on slave owners..... Why didn't he? If he had power, ample opportunity and moral desire too, why not act?
From my perspective the obvious answer is that he lacks one of those 3 features if not all 3 - either being lazy, impotent, immoral or of course non existent.
Also saying that equality for people of all sexual orientations is Social Degradation is an absolutely repugnant statement - I have many friends who have a wide variety of sexual orientations and I would wish nothing but happiness for all of them because I love them, I have a son and if he was Homosexual I would love and accept him just the same and encourage him to seek his own happiness..... Any good and loving father would.
Peace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by Faith, posted 03-17-2013 6:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 745 by kofh2u, posted 03-19-2013 11:37 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied
 Message 775 by Faith, posted 03-19-2013 4:37 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 740 of 1221 (693652)
03-19-2013 6:43 AM


Just picked through the debate again and figured I'd add some qualifiers
Are people here seriously defending Slavery in order to support your beliefs???? That's insane - slavery is a disgrace we share as a humans (I'm Irish so I'm largely clean on this particular disgrace, but it's still a fair nasty thing globally) - I dare say if any African Americans joined this debate they'd be rather insulted by some of the comments.
Secondly I wanna elaborate on my Ant comment.
Morality as in a being good ad socially minded is a very obvious and nessecary biological mechanic of any social creature - it has evolved as something of great benefit to each individual as it benefits the collective. Ants are only a class 1 level of awareness (where as humans r a class 6) so we would expect their "moral drive" to appear more basic and instinctive. Our social biological mechanic ie far more advanced as is fitting our more advanced society, but it is still an essentially biomechanical evolutionary process no
Different than that seen in hive insects, flocking birds, pack hunters and primate family groups. It's a fascinating topic which is wonderful to read about and discuss but it is not magical.
Further more I dare say a magical route to morality would tale some
Of the fun and accomplishment out of being human

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 744 of 1221 (693671)
03-19-2013 11:36 AM


Obviously the world was a rather different place hostprically, but I think the point that is being made is as follows;
-morality falls into either subjective or objective
-many of the laws and acts within the bible (as a whole not just OT) would be considered immoral or dubious as best
-an unchanging god would not stand for dubious morality
-if morality was through divinity then we would expect it to be objective
-since we can see morality historically not matching up to modern morality we can assume (outside of biological and psychological data which also support this point) that morality is subjective
-hence morality can exist without a divine objective guide
-Boom

Replies to this message:
 Message 748 by kofh2u, posted 03-19-2013 11:55 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


(1)
Message 746 of 1221 (693673)
03-19-2013 11:47 AM


I'm sorry but can u offer any supporting evidence of Jesus and his divine provenance - I'm willingbto debt god cause I can't prove he doesn't exist but Jesus is no where outside of the bible and his lineage is again dubious
Secondly where does he say "slavery is bad" - as far as I am aware he said not a word of the law shall be changed until the end of time, I'm paraphrasing but doesn't that mean it's still ok for Christians to own slaves??? Well not ok, I think it's grossly immoral but your god seems ok with it

Replies to this message:
 Message 749 by kofh2u, posted 03-19-2013 12:00 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied
 Message 751 by kofh2u, posted 03-19-2013 12:14 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 747 of 1221 (693674)
03-19-2013 11:52 AM


Oh and since I'm asking u for evidence it seems only fair I present some more
Mathew 5:18
New International Version (2011)
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 750 of 1221 (693678)
03-19-2013 12:03 PM


I love the Golden rule "treat others as you would like them to treat you" it's a wonderful rule, one I would say I absent from a lot of bible teachings btw but that's beside the point I'd like to make.
There is no way in hell u can hold up the golden rule and attach it to the bible or god many many religions use it, including budism which obvious has very little in the way of a god in a traditional sense to decree it and u cant pin it on Jesus either cause Confusius (who we have vastly more historical data for) was saying it on record nearly 500 years before Jesus was born

Replies to this message:
 Message 752 by kofh2u, posted 03-19-2013 12:20 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied
 Message 753 by Theodoric, posted 03-19-2013 12:35 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied
 Message 757 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 03-19-2013 12:52 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 754 of 1221 (693687)
03-19-2013 12:46 PM


I agree that Confusius is probably an elaboration BUT he has more of a semblance of reality than Jesus - but that is opinion and not really relevant as I was merely pointing out that Eastern philosophy is as moral (if not more so) without the Christian God and that the teachings predate Jesus
Oh and on teachings that predate Jesus, Confusius says;
"Forgive thy enemy, be reconcile to him
And invoke god in his name"
U guys r the only ones who love thy enemy? My aching ass!
Also it's kinda lame and lack lister loving thy enemy after spending thousands of years butchering them, stealing their daughters and sowing salt in their fields don't u think? Maybe Jesus thought there were no enemies left?

Replies to this message:
 Message 760 by Theodoric, posted 03-19-2013 1:15 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 756 of 1221 (693689)
03-19-2013 12:49 PM


Show me the Love!
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
And please don't give me revisionist stuff or I'll have to qoute Mathew 5:18 again

Replies to this message:
 Message 759 by kofh2u, posted 03-19-2013 1:08 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied
 Message 800 by Just being real, posted 03-20-2013 3:33 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 761 of 1221 (693695)
03-19-2013 1:17 PM


With regards to the sadist comment u r mixing up ur S with ur M there, Sadists enjoy inflicting pain not being hurt themselves
But in mentioning that u bring up an interesting talking point, full disclosure I am a Sadist and I enjoy a very healthy and happy sex life in the Dublin alt and fetish scene - but I do not go around hurting random people and the subs I know don't randomly whip people
Either, in that regard the golden rule would mean respect others and make them as happy as you want to be.
There is a lot of biblical time spent on sexual morality and it all
Misses the point hugely - in the fetish scene there are actual sexual morals which I've never seen a preacher mention and are far
More valid, rules like ensure full consent, if anyone is unhappy end the current play immediately and of course always practice safe sex - those r good morals that leave everyone very happy. Just an aside but an interesting one I think as my life style would be considered grossly immoral by some, but I would consider the people in the scene to be exceptionally decent, loving and accepting

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 762 of 1221 (693696)
03-19-2013 1:20 PM


Sorry Kof how does pointing out musilim craziness help
Ur case? Just looks like a cheap tangental dig

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 763 of 1221 (693699)
03-19-2013 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 755 by Just being real
03-19-2013 12:46 PM


All very well worded and delighted to have ur two cents, u may have missed it but I began my arguement on this thread referencing some of the evils in the bible - if ur god given morality is unwavering then can I expect that u go with the following;
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
There is more but u get the point right

This message is a reply to:
 Message 755 by Just being real, posted 03-19-2013 12:46 PM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 808 by Just being real, posted 03-20-2013 4:18 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


(2)
Message 766 of 1221 (693702)
03-19-2013 1:54 PM


While we r at it
Have the thiests been scared off? I was enjoying this :-( (my luck they'll all post now)
I'm gonna have to depart for a bit soon (date with a rather gorgeous and kinky english lady) - but before I do I wanted one more stab at the immorality of Christian doctorine, and here it is;
The concept of a literal Hell is grossly immoral, no person no matter how evil can ever do enough harm to justify an eternity of torture - it simply doesn't match up, a finite life (even if it spent every hour of every day dedicated to evil) could never commit enough wrong to warrant being tortured for all eternity, eternity is just so much more vast than a human life time.
Aside from that I'm not particularly in favour of capital punishment most people can be helped - but I guess I'm just nicer than god

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 802 of 1221 (693797)
03-20-2013 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 775 by Faith
03-19-2013 4:37 PM


Faith ur logic seems really really weird to me, how is death of BILLIONS ok but laying down rules is "pushing people beyond their tolerance" - that's insane!
Damn near everything is preferable to death!
Seriously on what sort of scale is any rule you ever make EVER going to be worse than driving humanity to the brink of extinction! That's really dumb
On an aside what could the world possibly have done to deserve it? I'm an art therapist as such I've broken bread with murders, drug dealers and rapists - I would not wish death upon a single one of them, not many can be rehabilitated if I'm being totally honest but there isn't one I'd give up on. Where there is life there is hope.
And what of the children, infants and unborn of the preflood world? Presumably they were slaughtered too. Is there any way to justify that that isn't totally totally immoral! Thegod of the bible is a blood thirsty monster, if it was proven to me that the biblical account was accurate I'd refuse to worship such a villianous beast

This message is a reply to:
 Message 775 by Faith, posted 03-19-2013 4:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 803 by Faith, posted 03-20-2013 3:47 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 807 of 1221 (693802)
03-20-2013 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 781 by Theodoric
03-19-2013 6:06 PM


Re: slavery
Delighted to see someone mention this - as an Irish man I'd rather not personally use such a point in a cheesy online debate but it is very valid and is a huge national
Shame that we are all quite acutely aware of.
If it's any consolidation it's left Ireland very nearly an atheist nation which will serve us well in the next few generations (again in the light of the recent X case a lot of us can't wait to get rid of Christianity from our lovely little country entirely)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by Theodoric, posted 03-19-2013 6:06 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 809 by Faith, posted 03-20-2013 4:20 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
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