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Author Topic:   Morality without god
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 1221 (676996)
10-26-2012 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Dogmafood
10-26-2012 7:41 AM


Re: As A Man Thinks In his heart
I am suggesting that a reckoning up of benefits is exactly what a conscience is.
So what benefit did Dr. A reckon up when he returned money to the shopkeeper?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Dogmafood, posted 10-26-2012 7:41 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Dogmafood, posted 10-26-2012 6:54 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 1221 (677121)
10-26-2012 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dogmafood
10-26-2012 6:54 PM


Re: As A Man Thinks In his heart
He satisfied his sense of fairness. If he didn't suffer from that sense then he would have kept the money and satisfied his sense of profit.
I think this argument is flawed. In either case, Dr. Adequate would have satisfied one sense and frustrated another sense. Surely you are not suggesting that Dr A had/has no profit sense.
So sense satisfying cannot be the sole explanation for which action Dr. A took.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Dogmafood, posted 10-26-2012 6:54 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Dogmafood, posted 10-27-2012 7:38 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 741 of 1221 (693664)
03-19-2013 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 725 by Coyote
03-19-2013 12:10 AM


Re: ...slaves to the instinct for surviva...l
quote:
A slave cannot be freed, save he do it himself. Nor can you enslave a free man; the very most you can do is kill him!
I enjoy a lot of Heinlein's work, but his books are full of crap philosphy of which this is one example.
I imagine that Africans shackled in the bottom of a ship on their way to a place from which they could never return home would have felt obliged to kill themselves or allow themselves to be killed if only they could have had available an advanced copy of Double Star from which to read this pearl of wisdom.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 725 by Coyote, posted 03-19-2013 12:10 AM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 742 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-19-2013 10:50 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 765 of 1221 (693701)
03-19-2013 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 742 by New Cat's Eye
03-19-2013 10:50 AM


Re: ...slaves to the instinct for surviva...l
Weren't they already slaves before the ships got there? They'd've needed the book back at "home"...
How does that make your Heinlein quote any less ridiculous?
It turns out that you can actually enslave free people by force. We have plenty of historical evidence for that.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 742 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-19-2013 10:50 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 768 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-19-2013 3:38 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 797 of 1221 (693791)
03-20-2013 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 768 by New Cat's Eye
03-19-2013 3:38 PM


It doesn't, I was just nitpicking your criticism. You said they'd need the book on the boat, but really they'd have needed it before then.
I let that challenge go because I wanted to point out that it didn't matter. But in fact many of the Africans sold by other Africans were not in fact slaves, but POWs, kidnap victims, and other captives. I don't think it's possible to make the case that their purchasers weren't involved in their enslavement.
That is, if someone frees some slaves then they're not really going to be "free". That don't make much sense to me, but I was never that good with profundity.
It does not make sense. In fact it is stupid or worse.
Well if you enslave them then they're not free, what it seems to be saying is the one's who refuse to not be free will end up choosing to be killed. That is, the people who allowed themselves to be enslaved weren't willing to die for their freedom, and, I suppose, they weren't really "free".
You cannot actually gain any freedom by dying.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 768 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-19-2013 3:38 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 798 of 1221 (693792)
03-20-2013 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 792 by Faith
03-19-2013 6:58 PM


Re: slavery
I came to answer a particular post, and the topic of that post has continued so I continue while it continues. It was quite clear already.
Why are you making excuses for posting here? We all know that even when you don't post that you are lurking here and dropping red bread crumbs to mark your passage. In fact how would you even know about the post if you weren't here?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 792 by Faith, posted 03-19-2013 6:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 799 by Faith, posted 03-20-2013 3:25 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 820 of 1221 (693870)
03-20-2013 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 799 by Faith
03-20-2013 3:25 AM


Re: slavery
Not that you care of course since you'd prefer just to add your snark to the rest of it.
My question was meant to be serious. If you need to apologize for being here, then why are you even here?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 799 by Faith, posted 03-20-2013 3:25 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 821 of 1221 (693871)
03-20-2013 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 804 by Just being real
03-20-2013 3:54 AM


All true Christians agree that the Bible is the word of God and though there might be some minor variances in interpretation, they all agree on the main and plain things
But Christians don't all mean the same thing by 'the word of God'.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 804 by Just being real, posted 03-20-2013 3:54 AM Just being real has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1163 of 1221 (695984)
04-10-2013 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1161 by Dr Adequate
04-09-2013 9:36 PM


Pharoah's heart.
Romans 9:17 is even more explicit about this than those verses in Exodus:
quote:
17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.[a] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
If you do a search for this topic, you'll find that Christians do find Romans 9:17 and the Exodus verses to be problematic. People who advocate that God did not harden Pharoah's heart invariably suggest that the language is only figurative. But there simply isn't any room to take the Bertot approach of saying that the a literal reading of the text, particularly the text of Romans does not involve God in the hardening of Pharoah's heart.
Some example interpretations:
Theory 1: For God's Glory.
Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart? - ChristianAnswers.Net
quote:
Why did God harden Pharaoh’s heart?
The best, most direct, simple answer to the question above is: In order to demonstrate His power, and in order that His name might be proclaimed throughout the entire earth.
Theory 2: Use of non-literal expressions.
Who Hardened Pharaoh's Heart? - Apologetics Press
quote:
In his copious work on biblical figures of speech, E.W. Bullinger listed several ways that the Hebrew and Greek languages used verbs to mean something other than their strict, literal usage. He listed several verses that show that the languages used active verbs to express the agent’s design or attempt to do anything, even though the thing was not actually done
Some people back this up by noting that Samuel 6:6 places the blame squarely on Pharoah
I Samuel 6:6
quote:
Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?
Theory 3: The Pharaoh was evil and was justly used and punished:
Why did God harden Pharaoh’s heart? | GotQuestions.org
quote:
As a result of Pharaoh’s hard-heartedness, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart even further, allowing for the last few plagues (Exodus 9:12; 10:20, 27). Pharaoh and Egypt had brought these judgments on themselves with 400 years of slavery and mass murder. Since the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and Pharaoh and Egypt had horribly sinned against God, it would have been just if God had completely annihilated Egypt. Therefore, God’s hardening Pharaoh’s heart was not unjust, and His bringing additional plagues against Egypt was not unjust. The plagues, as terrible as they were, actually demonstrate God’s mercy in not completely destroying Egypt, which would have been a perfectly just penalty.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1161 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-09-2013 9:36 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1164 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-13-2013 10:02 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
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