Morality without god

It's nothing more than a prejudice - it's as 'ist' as regarding coloured people as lesser beings.They need to be called on their assumptions every time comes up.

"Do as you would be done by" pretty much covers it though doesn't it?I doubt you could feel ok about theft, murder, rape etc no matter how much you attempted to rationalise it. Unless you're a psychopath, those are emotions that are hard wired into us like feeling happy, angry or sad. We can't avoid what we call morality by rationalising it away, our actions cause real feelings that are mostly outside our conscious control.

It's beyond doubt that some humans are capable of committing, say, murder, and feeling ok about it. It fact some appear to enjoy it and seek it out. But those people are unusual - the majority of us, if we could do it at all, would agonise over it. (We know that people will do awful things if there are conflicting pressures - the Milgram experiments prove it - but they stlll know it's wrong and most dislike it at a gut level.)Even at the low level of telling lies most people are uncomfortable - that's the basis for the lie detector for example.I'm trying to say that morality is physiological as well as cultural and legal. Our mind can overrule our morality emotion, so that we can do things that we know to be wrong, but there's something in us that makes it hard to do.I find it really fascinating because our sense of morality is very easily changed by drugs and brain damage - morality is a brain function in the orbitofrontal cortex and it can be manipulated. I had a thread on it a while back that was centred around the story of Fred who suddenly became a paedophile because of a brain tumour (this was proven). It's here if you're interested:EvC Forum: Biology is Destiny?

We know for sure that large quantities of people can be made to do bad things and do them over a period of time. They do tend to require us to believe that the people we do them to are not like us though. We do them to the other tribe, race, religion, family and so on - the more distant we can make our object of the amoral action the easier it gets.I agree that our morality is plastic; we know that it has changed over the generations and I think we all know an understand the Lord of the Flies effect. In fact, we know that we are capable of bad stuff simply because we have invested in rules and methods of enforcement to attempt to contain them.It's going to be a complicated thing this thing that we call morality.

It's fun to imagine that God is evil, playing a nasty little game with us. Would the absolute morality then be moral?More obviously, we know that morality is plastic and there is no such thing as absolute morality. But as you're so sure that there is such a thing, perhaps you could tell us what it actually is?

We would say that it is both wrong and immoral and it's simply one example of many that demonstrates that morality is a fluid concept that changes over time and between cultures.You, on the other hand have said that morality is absolute. Yet despite being asked to say how this operates and to give examples of this absolute morality, you have so far ignored the requests. Why is this?

And I have said that morality exists but it is not absolute. That is easily proved and you have done it yourself by explaining that we all believe murder to be wrong but can site many examples when we have found it less wrong or not wrong at all.Morality obviously exists; whether it exists only if a god exists would be relevant if you could show that there was a god and that that god interacted directly somehow in our behaviour and conscience. (Which you obviously can't.)All that can be said further is that a god is not necessary for *my* morality but it seems to be for yours. I'm an atheist and do not rely on a belief in God to make moral decisions about my life. Nor do I believe that some god is pulling my strings without my knowledge or has inbued me with a sense of morality at birth. Yet somehow I fail to rape and murder. You need to explain that.

Wrong. The reason we treat the crimes committed by children and the mentally ill differently from adults and the sane is because we understand that they have a poor understanding of right and wrong - they have their own versions of it which is both rational and reasonable to THEM but not to US.Morality is an agreement between the majority members of adult society about behaviour; it's fluid between societies and over time. All you're saying is that it's not absolute - well so what? You have refused to tell us what an absolute morality would actually be or even give us an example or tell us why it matters. All that you say is that it must come from a god. Will any god do?

And exactly how do we get the opinion of an ant, a privet hedge and a giraffe? Er, it's from the perspective of the society I live in, not my own personal view. And it's so logical that we actually create a whole category of rational thought on it - we call it law and it's so practical that we enforce it.Final time of asking. What is this absolute morality of which you speak. Please provide an example.

When you say ALL life, you mean animal life only don't you? Because, of course, if you include plants, you're buggered. Pretty, daft really, we all starve to death.And then you somehow you have to deal with carnivores. Your god thought it ok for animals to eat other animals (and a few plants to eat them too.) So how come it's not moral for us?Then, of course, if you really believed this garbage, you'd be a Jainist not a Christian. How could I not be, you're hilarious! Don't ever change. Well ok then, until this infinite wisdom comes along, I guess we'll have to make do with what we have - human wisdom.I note you still haven't provided us with an example of what this absolute morality actually IS. Could it be because you haven't a bloody clue?

It's a measure of how clearly you've set out your arguments that no matter how often I read the above sentences, I can't make them make sense. Did you mean does NOT actually exist?If you actually mean that you have shown that morality DOES exist, then yippee, perhaps you'll now attempt a proof that my car exists. It would make it so much more satisfying to drive.I have no idea why you are making such a mess of this. Morality clearly exists. It's relative and changes over time and between cultures. You are unable to say what an absolute morality would actually look like if it did exist or show that it exists at all.Come back when you can.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

You just killed the concept of free will.

We have argued that morality exists and that it is relative.
While you keep on saying that without god morality is not absolute.
So we just shrug and nod because we agree that morality isn't absolute.
Insisting that morality must be absolute whilst observing that it isn't, can only prove to you that god doesn't actually exist.It seems to me that you've painted yourself into a corner.(And we're all still waiting for your description of what an absolute morality would look like if it existed.)

I do have a morality that is above and beyond myself, it's governed and taught by the society I live in and at its extreme is reinforced by laws. It changes over time and between societies.You know this to be a fact. You haven't explained it at all, the above is simply a bundle of words with no meaning. You have never given an example of what this absolute morality would look like or how it would be applied.As you believe in this super-morality, I want to know, in practical tangible terms, what it actually is and what behaviour it requires of us humans that we don't already do.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Jainists believe that it is wrong to kill even one ant; even accidentally. Christians don't. The problem that both they and you have is that the world is set up so that violence to life forms by other life forms is a simple consequence of life existing at all.If it's immoral to wipe out an ants nest - and I believe that in some circumstances it would be, such as doing it for fun, not necessity - then is it immoral to harvest a field of wheat; if not why not?Jains belive that it's wrong to harm plants but can't get beyond our need to eat which means harming plants....the best they can achieve is a path of least harm. What's inside of us is a series of physical emotions developed in our communities over many generations that in sum we call our sense of morality, some of which we codify into law. It has varied over time and varies between communities. As I've said, in some circumstances it is plainly immoral to kill other animals. This is why most developed countries have laws protecting cruelty to animals. When we do it for any other reason than necessity, there is an obvious moral problem. I say obvious, but to many cultures and to our own in earlier times, cruelty to animals was not considered immoral.So if it's immoral for us to wantonly kill and torture animals, why is it ok for God to do so?