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Author Topic:   Do the Right Thing Tomorrow, Yanks
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 166 of 203 (682207)
11-30-2012 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Straggler
11-30-2012 1:59 PM


Re: Facing Up to the Enormity of Our Problem
I'm intrigued

I'm not intrigued. Seriously. An editorial from a wingnut magazine claims that Obama's presidency is just short of the apocalypse? Not so surprising. This is the same magazine that finds it outrageous that people they have never heard of and cannot be bothered to research are on postage stamps.

American Thinker? Please.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Straggler, posted 11-30-2012 1:59 PM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by hooah212002, posted 11-30-2012 2:33 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


(3)
Message 167 of 203 (682208)
11-30-2012 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by foreveryoung
11-30-2012 2:16 PM


Re: Facing Up to the Enormity of Our Problem
It isn't the problem the world faces; it is the problem philosophical conservatives face.

The problem that philosophical conservatives face, is that the world does not work the way that they think it works.

The article is talking about the type of life conservatives enjoy living is rapidly going away and the chances of it ever coming back are slim.

Quite so. However, the type of life that conservatives enjoy living has never existed, except in their over-inventive imaginations.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by foreveryoung, posted 11-30-2012 2:16 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6317
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 168 of 203 (682209)
11-30-2012 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by foreveryoung
11-30-2012 1:41 PM


Re: Facing Up to the Enormity of Our Problem
We don't argue links.

Can you spell it out in your own words.

I don't click links to garbage.

American Thinker makes Worldnutdaily and Newsmax look respectable.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by foreveryoung, posted 11-30-2012 1:41 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
ooh-child
Member
Posts: 232
Joined: 04-10-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 169 of 203 (682210)
11-30-2012 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by foreveryoung
11-30-2012 1:41 PM


Re: Facing Up to the Enormity of Our Problem
The problem you philosophical conservatives have is your premise. That article throws all the usual 'socialist' propaganda about Obama at the wall, but nothing sticks.

The truth is Obama is a centrist dealmaker, not a mind-bending ideologue insistant on destroying this country.

Until you check your premise, your arguements fall far short of dealing with reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by foreveryoung, posted 11-30-2012 1:41 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6317
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 170 of 203 (682211)
11-30-2012 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by foreveryoung
11-30-2012 2:16 PM


Re: Facing Up to the Enormity of Our Problem
How about you attempt to stay on topic. If we want to discuss this crap propose a topic. I am sick and tired of you wingnuts sliding your crap into existing topics.

If you don't think you can get a topic promoted, don't foul existing threads with it.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by foreveryoung, posted 11-30-2012 2:16 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 171 of 203 (682212)
11-30-2012 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by NoNukes
11-30-2012 2:17 PM


Re: Facing Up to the Enormity of Our Problem
Article on the top right is labeled "37 things you should hoard". Yea, this site just screams rationality and credibility.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by NoNukes, posted 11-30-2012 2:17 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1360 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 172 of 203 (682213)
11-30-2012 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by foreveryoung
11-30-2012 2:16 PM


Re: Facing Up to the Enormity of Our Problem
The article is talking about the type of life conservatives enjoy living

I'm curious, FEY - what does this refer to, specifically?


The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by foreveryoung, posted 11-30-2012 2:16 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1140 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(4)
Message 173 of 203 (682226)
11-30-2012 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by foreveryoung
11-30-2012 1:41 PM


Better face the nature of the problem first
Well, I can't believe I read the entire thing, but I did.

You certainly have an enormous problem.

One face of that problem is claiming that the "American left" (by which I understand anyone to the left of Genghis Khan) oppresses economic vitality with "confiscatory tax rates" when, in fact, taxes are at extraordinarily low levels, historically speaking, and we had greater wealth, growth and productivity under the higher Clinton-era tax rates.

Another face of that problem is the attempt by philosophical conservatives to present themselves as champions of liberty when their standard bearers, the Taliban side of the GOP coalition, wants the government to intrude into the most intimate aspects of citizens' lives to impose matters of individual conscience with the fiat of law.

The demonization of the Eurozone as a nest of socialist leeches is especially interesting, in light of the fact that Europe has grimly pursued the austerity measures advocated by American conservatives, while Obama's administration has pursued classic stimulative measures, albeit timid ones, given GOP obstruction.

Yet the Eurozone is now facing 12% unemployment while the U.S. economy continues to improve by pretty much every measure. I am confident that conservatives recognize the strong possibility of another economic boom during Obama's second administration--a surging recovery that would have appeared in his first administration if the GOP hadn't put their party's interest ahead of the nation's.

The GOP played a cut-throat game for all the marbles in the 2008-2012 term, and miscalculated badly.

In short, the most enormous problem conservatism faces is that it is demonstrably wrong on pretty much every count. American voters haven't been seduced by ponies of dependency--they've (god stop this metaphor I can't) been repelled by the horses conservatism rode in on: oligarchical wealth and power, and theocratic control of private life.

On a side note, the guy writes like a college freshman penning diatribes for underground newspapers back in the 60s. Only the villains have changed.

Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by foreveryoung, posted 11-30-2012 1:41 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by foreveryoung, posted 11-30-2012 4:33 PM Omnivorous has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6317
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 174 of 203 (682227)
11-30-2012 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by foreveryoung
11-30-2012 1:41 PM


Re: Facing Up to the Enormity of Our Problem
Daren Jonescu

You do realize that this guy is a furriner, don't you.
Also, he teaches english and philosophy in South Korea. Why should anything he says matter?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by foreveryoung, posted 11-30-2012 1:41 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 175 of 203 (682231)
11-30-2012 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by foreveryoung
11-30-2012 1:41 PM


Re: Facing Up to the Enormity of Our Problem
I know that this article talks about things in a broad, and generalized manner, and from experience here, that is what you guys will seize upon.

Well, yes. You noticed that. Well done.

According to asshats like the guy you linked to, we are being robbed of our liberties. But which ones? Last time I checked, I still have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to bear arms, all that good stuff. No-one has taken away any particular freedom that I formerly possessed. No, my freedom has been taken away in such a "broad and generalized manner" that there are no specific instances whatsoever of any particular liberty being taken away from me.

Similarly, the loony thinks that we are living under "socialism". Well, I must have missed that. Could you point out to me where the federal government seized control of the means of production, distribution, or exchange? Any particular case? Of course you can't. It didn't actually happen. Nothing has been socialized. Nothing in particular has been socialized. But "in a broad and generalized manner" everything has.

So yeah, you've correctly identified the problem in this article. No particular liberties have been taken away from us, and nothing in particular has been socialized. But "in a broad and generalized manner" our President is a black man with a funny name, so "in a broad and generalized manner" he must have robbed us of our liberties and made us all Marxists, even though if you read the fucking Constitution, which you obviously haven't, he couldn't do that even if he wanted to.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by foreveryoung, posted 11-30-2012 1:41 PM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by foreveryoung, posted 11-30-2012 4:35 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 920
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 176 of 203 (682234)
11-30-2012 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Omnivorous
11-30-2012 3:31 PM


Re: Better face the nature of the problem first
One face of that problem is claiming that the "American left" (by which I understand anyone to the left of Genghis Khan) oppresses economic vitality with "confiscatory tax rates" when, in fact, taxes are at extraordinarily low levels, historically speaking, and we had greater wealth, growth and productivity under the higher Clinton-era tax rates.

The article states that socialist authoritarians oppress economic freedoms with confiscatory tax rates. Can you name one liberal democrat who has not sought to raise taxes on "the rich"? Can you name one liberal democrat who has not made that statement at least once when asked about how to solve economic problems?

Another face of that problem is the attempt by philosophical conservatives to present themselves as champions of liberty when their standard bearers, the Taliban side of the GOP coalition, wants the government to intrude into the most intimate aspects of citizens' lives to impose matters of individual conscience with the fiat of law.

That is the typical response of liberal minded thinkers. You think that freedom is only the ability to smoke a joint or to marry your brother.

The demonization of the Eurozone as a nest of socialist leeches is especially interesting, in light of the fact that Europe has grimly pursued the austerity measures advocated by American conservatives, while Obama's administration has pursued classic stimulative measures, albeit timid ones, given GOP obstruction.

I don't know if the populace of the eurozone is socialist. They simply have grown accustomed to be leeches of the government. Are you going to deny that the majority of the eurozone populace enjoys their social programs and would fight tooth and nail to even slightly trim a single one?

Yet the Eurozone is now facing 12% unemployment while the U.S. economy continues to improve by pretty much every measure.

This is supposed to contradict a point of the article in some way?

I am confident that conservatives recognize the strong possibility of another economic boom during Obama's second administration--a surging recovery that would have appeared in his first administration if the GOP hadn't put their party's interest ahead of the nation's.

This conservative recognizes no such thing unless one thing happens.... Obama is not allowed to do what he wants to, or is forced into accepting a few GOP initiatives. Most conservatives do not agree with your assessment of them either. What makes you think there would have been a surging recovery in his first term if obama got his way? He could have passed whatever we wanted to his first two years. There was absolutely nothing standing in his way since his party held the leads of power in both houses of congress and the presidency.

The GOP played a cut-throat game for all the marbles in the 2008-2012 term, and miscalculated badly.

What do you mean by this? You seem to be saying that preventing legislation that you believe is harmful to the country is somehow being a cut-throat.

In short, the most enormous problem conservatism faces is that it is demonstrably wrong on pretty much every count

Went wrong in what way? ...in what standard of measure?

American voters haven't been seduced by ponies of dependency

Not sure what that phrase means. The american voters have been indeed seduced into accepting whatever the media has to say about the obama administration and whatever the media has to say about republicans and conservative ideas in general.

they've (god stop this metaphor I can't) been repelled by the horses conservatism rode in on: oligarchical wealth and power, and theocratic control of private life.

That is what the media convince the american people that conservatism was all about. They obviously convinced you some time ago that was true. Either that or the people you surrounded yourself with convinced you of that.

On a side note, the guy writes like a college freshman penning diatribes for underground newspapers back in the 60s. Only the villains have changed.

How does a college freshman write as opposed to a college graduate, and how does what he writes qualify for that description?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Omnivorous, posted 11-30-2012 3:31 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Theodoric, posted 11-30-2012 4:47 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded
 Message 181 by ooh-child, posted 11-30-2012 5:13 PM foreveryoung has responded
 Message 184 by Omnivorous, posted 11-30-2012 5:50 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 920
Joined: 12-26-2011


(1)
Message 177 of 203 (682235)
11-30-2012 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Dr Adequate
11-30-2012 4:19 PM


Re: Facing Up to the Enormity of Our Problem
According to asshats like the guy you linked to, we are being robbed of our liberties. But which ones? Last time I checked, I still have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to bear arms, all that good stuff.

I thought you lived in the UK.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-30-2012 4:19 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Theodoric, posted 11-30-2012 5:09 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded
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 Message 183 by onifre, posted 11-30-2012 5:42 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6317
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 178 of 203 (682238)
11-30-2012 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by foreveryoung
11-30-2012 4:33 PM


Re: Better face the nature of the problem first
The article states that socialist authoritarians oppress economic freedoms with confiscatory tax rates.

Do you or this moron that wrote the article have any clue how the current rate of taxation compares to historical rates?

Please show some sort of study that shows lowering of taxes has produced increased economic output, or that raising taxes on the top % earners will hurt the economy.

Anything?

Edited by Theodoric, : Thanks Jar for pointing out error
hurt not improve


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by foreveryoung, posted 11-30-2012 4:33 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6317
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 179 of 203 (682241)
11-30-2012 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by foreveryoung
11-30-2012 4:35 PM


Re: Facing Up to the Enormity of Our Problem
Since when is Las Vegas in the UK?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by foreveryoung, posted 11-30-2012 4:35 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


(4)
Message 180 of 203 (682242)
11-30-2012 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Theodoric
11-30-2012 4:47 PM


Re: Better face the nature of the problem first
The median per capita income in the US was $41,560 in 2011. In 2006 it was $37,725.

The proposed tax increases are to be on those earning over six times the median US per capita income.

The 2012 individual poverty level is $11,170.

The proposed tax increases are to be on those earning over twenty-two times the US per capita poverty level.

Somehow I don't see confiscatory tax rates anywhere in those facts.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Theodoric, posted 11-30-2012 4:47 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
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