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Author Topic:   Creationism Road Trip
nwr
Member
Posts: 5586
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 4 of 409 (678487)
11-08-2012 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate
11-07-2012 9:07 PM


I watched this last night. I'll note that it is almost one hour, so don't start watching until you have a good block of available time.

I found it interesting, but not surprising. I've been part of the debate at evcforum, to have a good idea as to the way people react.

I liked the way that Percy describes Phil and JoJo.

I think the era of the Phil's of this world is passing. With the availability of information on Internet, it is becoming impossible to keep children in a protective cocoon of ignorance. The more open minded kind of religion that we see in JoJo is better able to withstand the flow of information that can no longer be stopped. I think we were seeing some of that change in the choices of younger voters during the recent election.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 5586
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


(1)
Message 51 of 409 (678657)
11-09-2012 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by kofh2u
11-09-2012 5:32 PM


Re: One Day
When the Teachers Union demands full pay retirement benefits after 30 years employment, the Real Estate Taxes MUST go up to get that money set aside into their retirement fund.

Nonsense. Typical right wing nonsense.

In most of the cases that I am aware of, the teachers union negotiated retirement benefits. They would have preferred a pay increase. They settled for retirement benefits, as a kind of delayed payment for their services.

If taxes are going up now to pay teachers retirement benefits, then blame the politicians. If the politicians had taken the money that they had saved by paying lower salary, and put that into an investment account, there would be no problem paying those retirement benefits.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5586
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 70 of 409 (679293)
11-13-2012 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Faith
11-13-2012 2:34 AM


Re: One Silly Misconceived Road Trip
Faith writes:
First, how can you justify the basic craziness of getting a bunch of clearly average believers together with professional scientists and think anything about the creation-evolution debate could be revealed this way?

It isn't about the creation-evolution debate. It is about human nature and about how people with strong beliefs react when they encounter evidence that is contrary to those beliefs.

As far as I know, this was an entertainment program on TV. I presume that the creationists participated voluntarily - they perhaps got a free vacation out of it. I'm sure that they knew well in advance that they were going to have their beliefs challenged.

Obviously, I don't know what went on that was not on the video. What I saw on the video was scientists presenting their evidence, but not directly attacking the beliefs of the participants. For example, Jerry Coyne vehemently attacks religion on his blog, but I did not see any of that on the video. He did ask hard questions about the ark story - as in hard for creationists to answer.

Faith writes:
It's rather telling it seems to me that the most popular "creationist" to some on this thread was JoJo who is no Bible believer, probably doesn't know much Bible at all, supports gay rights as if the Bible has nothing to say about that, obviously has a merely sentimental "belief" which can hardly be called faith.

She appears to be more open minded, more willing to confront the evidence and rethink her beliefs. That is what I see as a positive about her. What she believed at the start, and what she finally believes when she has worked through this, are her choices and no concern of mine. But, as an educator, I do have an appreciation from people who are willing to reconsider their views in the light of new evidence.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 5586
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


(1)
Message 145 of 409 (680196)
11-18-2012 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Faith
11-18-2012 10:07 AM


Re: A Biblical geologist's take on the road trip
In one post he points out that Maxwell the host of the trip speaks of skulls supposedly having been "carbon dated" to millions of years.

A trivial point. What the scientist said is what matters. That the host of the trip got was confused is of no significance.

In another he points out that the geologist Prothero hypes himself as a scientist who "observes," but when he talked about how long it would have taken to form each of the layers that's not observation, that's pure interpretation, or imagination.

That's your mistake (and that blogger's mistake). The terms "observation" and "observe" are routinely used in science to refer to data and obtaining data.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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nwr
Member
Posts: 5586
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 153 of 409 (680225)
11-18-2012 3:24 PM


Ken Ham's response
It turns out that Ken Ham has a response to this road trip video:

(found via a blog post)


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5586
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 154 of 409 (680229)
11-18-2012 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by nwr
11-18-2012 3:24 PM


Re: Ken Ham's response
Quoting Ken Ham:
quote:
Maxwell considers creationism a “conspiracy,” no different than a belief in UFOs.

I can't read Maxwell's mind, but I suspect Ham has that wrong. The more common view is to see creationists as "conspiracy theorists". That is, they imagine huge implausible conspiracies as an explanation for all of the evidence that contradicts them.

quote:
Of course, it becomes obvious that the program is not intended to sincerely search out a matter but to make a mockery of Christians—particularly biblical creationists.

It was an entertainment program, not a news program. Of course it was not trying to "search out a matter." However, I don't see that it is aimed at making a mockery out of Christians. It seemed to steer clear of mocking.

Of course, Ken Ham might see it as mockery. He really does enjoy wearing that Christian Persecution Complex on his lapel.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5586
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 257 of 409 (680477)
11-19-2012 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Faith
11-19-2012 4:12 PM


Re: It's God's own word
Peter says the Old Testament writers knew they were writing to a future generation about salvation through the Messiah to come:

And where does he say that they were writing to a future generation about geology?

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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 Message 250 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 4:12 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5586
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


(4)
Message 285 of 409 (680630)
11-20-2012 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Faith
11-20-2012 11:00 AM


Re: Jesus "wrote" the Bible
Faith writes:
But I'm not even talking about that, I'm saying that the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit who is also called the Spirit of Christ.

But even if we accept that, the conclusion is still that the Bible was written by humans.

To get to the conclusion that you want, you have to assume something like demon possession. You have to assume that the Holy Spirit completely took over these peoples bodies, turning them into mindless mechanical zombies. You have to assume that the Holy Spirit then manipulated their muscles so that they would make marks (i.e. apparent writing), that those humans could never have understood themselves.

I see that as hopelessly unrealistic.

The best I can make of "inspired by the Holy Spirit" is that the writers were filled with ideas, but that they wrote those ideas in their own words. And what they wrote would, of necessity, be limited by their own knowledge and by their own cultural assumptions. You can conclude only that it was written for the people of that time who accepted the cultural assumptions of that time. You cannot conclude that it was written for modern Americans with their very different knowledge and cultural assumptions. Add to that the fact that humans, including the humans who wrote the Bible, are error prone.

From that starting point, you can arguably conclude that the Bible is inerrant in matters of faith. You cannot conclude that it is inerrant in matters of science, nor in matters of history.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:46 AM nwr has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5586
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 290 of 409 (680637)
11-20-2012 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Faith
11-20-2012 11:46 AM


Re: Jesus "wrote" the Bible
Faith writes:
That's not how the Holy Spirit works in inspiring people. He doesn't interfere with their personalities, He makes use of their personalities and knowledge. He indwells them and guides them through their own human spirit which is dead in fallen humanity but "quickened" at salvation.

But that agrees with what I said, and leads to the same conclusion, which I shall repeat:

myself writes:

The best I can make of "inspired by the Holy Spirit" is that the writers were filled with ideas, but that they wrote those ideas in their own words. And what they wrote would, of necessity, be limited by their own knowledge and by their own cultural assumptions. You can conclude only that it was written for the people of that time who accepted the cultural assumptions of that time. You cannot conclude that it was written for modern Americans with their very different knowledge and cultural assumptions. Add to that the fact that humans, including the humans who wrote the Bible, are error prone.

From that starting point, you can arguably conclude that the Bible is inerrant in matters of faith. You cannot conclude that it is inerrant in matters of science, nor in matters of history.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:46 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5586
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


(5)
Message 304 of 409 (680675)
11-20-2012 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Faith
11-20-2012 11:27 AM


Re: Reading the Bible the way it was meant to be read
Faith writes:
Yes there are a lot of people out there who read the Bible falsely. I read it the way the Protestant Reformers read it, Sola Scriptura and all that, the way the true believers down the centuries read it.

I don't think that's correct.

My understanding is that, among other things, the reformation was a rebellion against the authority of the pope and from a vatican imposed orthodoxy. The point of "Sola Scriptura" was that the scriptures were to be the sole authority on matters of faith. In effect, Christians were freed from the dictates of other men, and were to decide on matters of faith for themselves, based on their own reading of the scriptures. That is why we see a far broader diversity of views among protestants than we see among catholics.

When we look around today, we see fundamentalists bowing to the authority of pope Ken Ham. We see a neo-vatican orthodoxy being imposed by a fundamentalist hierarchy. We see Faith pressuring foreveryoung to follow her theology.

I see that as contrary to the principles of Sola Scriptura. After listening to Faith, foreveryoung has expressed his readings of the scripture. And, in accordance with Sola Scriptura, that should have settled it. Faith should not be pressuring him to change.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:27 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5586
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 405 of 409 (681059)
11-22-2012 9:18 AM


Summation is impossible, because ...
The arguments of Faith don't add up.

Edited by nwr, : No reason given.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

  
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