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Author Topic:   Creationism Road Trip
Tangle
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Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 41 of 409 (678606)
11-09-2012 10:04 AM


One of the girls fully explained the problem:

"With the faith that I have, if I accept all of this, then everything else is a pile of crap, and I don't accept that."

It's a belief lockdown.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 11-13-2012 7:14 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 58 of 409 (679260)
11-13-2012 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Faith
11-13-2012 2:34 AM


Re: One Silly Misconceived Road Trip
Faith writes:

First, how can you justify the basic craziness of getting a bunch of clearly average believers together with professional scientists and think anything about the creation-evolution debate could be revealed this way? The "creationists" on the bus trip hardly know anything about creationism or the Bible either for all I can tell, or science of any sort.

It's the mind-set that revealing.

When confronted by an expert, professional scientist, talking about his lifetime's study, no-one but an equivalently knowledgeable person CAN debate with him/her. It's not a debate, its a chance to learn from a world expert.

The ONLY reason to dispute anything any of the experts were saying was their belief in a particular religious idea (and not even the same religious idea). Because of that belief, they couldn't accept anything they were being told - the couldn't accept it not because they had any contradictory evidence but because they believed something different.

It must be really hard to maintain that level of dissonance.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Faith, posted 11-13-2012 2:34 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 11-13-2012 6:40 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 60 of 409 (679270)
11-13-2012 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
11-13-2012 6:40 AM


Re: One Silly Misconceived Road Trip
Faith writes:

Evolution is not science, it's all smoke and mirrors. Science is something else.

It's not just evolution (ie biology) that's wrong though is it? It's physics, geology, palaeontology, astronomy, genetics, molecular biology, embryology and in the end maths and chemistry.

You have to throw away ALL of modern science in order to believe what a YEC believes. Beats me how they have the gall to use a PC.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 11-13-2012 6:40 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 11-13-2012 7:27 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 65 of 409 (679279)
11-13-2012 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
11-13-2012 7:27 AM


Re: Evolution is not science
Faith writes:

This is pernicious nonsense, Tangle. Every time somebody says this it's painfully clear how little any of you understand.

So when a YEC say that the earth is 6,000 old which invalidates the entire field of geology, great chunks of physics and all of astronomy that's me not understanding science?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 11-13-2012 7:27 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 11-13-2012 7:35 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 67 of 409 (679282)
11-13-2012 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
11-13-2012 7:35 AM


Re: Evolution is not science
Faith writes:

It doesn't invalidate the field of geology at all, the age of the earth is entirely an interpretive scheme. The only actual science it contradicts is radiometric dating, which someday will be proved to be false but meanwhile that's the only science that takes a hit. Everything else is interpretation or theory. Everything in geology is quite easily accommodated in 6000 years. You only THINK the billions of years has been scientifically established. It's all smoke and mirrors.

You're going to have to take this on faith, Faith; trust me, for the earth to be only 6,000 years old the entirety of the subject of geology is wrong. None of it works, it's dead. Followed by pretty much the entirety of all scientific knowledge - everything.

Hundreds of years of study, by millions of scientists, across multiple disciplines with millions of experiments to prove their ideas beyond reasonable doubt - but you know it's wrong because you just KNOW it. Fabulous.

Edited by Tangle, : Spelling....


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 11-13-2012 7:35 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 11-14-2012 11:58 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 86 of 409 (679656)
11-15-2012 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
11-14-2012 11:58 PM


Re: Evolution is not science
Faith writes:

Sorry, Tangle, there's really nothing in Geology as such that contradicts a young earth.

The problem with this bold assertion is that the entirety ie ALL geologists disagree with you and have done for over a 100 years.

That's hundreds of thousands of professional geologists and millions of scholarly papers saying that you are wrong.

But that doesn't bother you at all does it. Faith's faith can not be shaken by mere facts.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 11-14-2012 11:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
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Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(4)
Message 141 of 409 (680165)
11-18-2012 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Faith
11-18-2012 1:34 AM


Re: Bible versus Geology
Reading this you'd think that the only geology on the planet was in the Grand Canyon.

I live on the South Coast of England on a bit of geology called chalk, it forms the famous white cliffs which I can almost see from my window as I type.

This is how geologists say the area where I live was formed:

25 million years ago
Long before man appeared on the planet, the south east of England was a low-lying landscape covered by a large shallow freshwater lake with several rivers flowing into it. These rivers carried vast amounts of clay or mud, which started to build up in layers on the bed of the lake. Eventually the clays reached a thickness of nearly 200 metres, forming the first layer known as the Weald Clay.


110 million years ago – the sea breaks through?

The land continued to sink until eventually the ocean broke in laying down massive layers of sand known as Lower Greensand. The sea gradually deepened and the waters became still. Under these conditions, a thick dark mud collected known as Gault Clay. After this period, there were strong underwater currents in the sea and the sandier sediments of the Upper Greensand were deposited.

97 million years ago – chalk and flint
It was during this time that the sea began to lay down the chalk of the South Downs as we know it today. Chalk is a white soft limestone, which has been formed from the skeletons of marine creatures deposited, squeezed and eventually fossilised on the sea-bed. This process continued for 20 million years and to a thickness of more than 300 metres . The white, pure limestone of the Chalk is superbly exposed at the great chalk cliffs of the Seven Sisters between the River Cuckmere and Beachy Head near Eastbourne.

The chalk contains flint which is the only hard rock to be found on the Downs. If you look at the great chalk cliffs of the Seven Sisters near Eastbourne you will be able to see narrow, dark grey bands of flint at regular intervals of a metre or so, up the cliff face. Flint was formed from the skeletons of minute animals, such as radiolarians, that floated around in those ancient seas.

After a field has been freshly ploughed, it looks like a stony wasteland as you can see how the flints have been unearthed and risen to the surface. Early people on the Downs found that they could use the razor-sharp edges of flaked flint as a cutting tool. Some of the best preserved flint mines can be found on the South Downs, especially at Cissbury, above Worthing. You can also see displays on flint working at Worthing Museum.

65 million years ago
It was at the beginning of this period that the ocean floor began to rise, the sea became shallower and the formation of chalk stopped. Deposits of clays, pebbles and sands were laid down.

20 million years – The Alpine Storm
Did you know?
Chalk contains visible fossils of creatures that lived in the sea 90 million years ago, including ammonites, sea urchins and fish sponges.
During this time the South Downs were raised from the seabed, through the movement of the earth’s crust. The land masses or ‘tectonic plates’ of Africa and Europe moved towards each other and collided. The rocks were pushed up and created mountain ranges, including the Himalayas and the Alps. The south east of England was caught up in this ‘Alpine Storm’ and the ripples pushed the layers of rock upwards forming a vast extended dome of chalk (See Figure 3). The neat layers of sands, clays and chalk, laid down over millions of years in fresh and salt water gradually hardened into rock.

Over millions of years, the landscape has gradually changed shape to form the South Downs as we know it today. The centre of the dome has been eroded. The soft chalk at the top of the dome gradually cracked and crumbled and the falling rain carried off these shattered pieces of chalk. This left an outer upstanding rim of chalk surrounding a lowland plain formed from older layers of clay and sandstone. The outer rim of chalk forms the uplands of the North and South Downs and the central plain is known as the Weald.

2 Million years ago - The Ice ages
Although the South East of England was not covered in ice, an intensely cold climate dominated this area. This meant that the rock and soil was frozen for most of the year. Summer rain and melt-water could not soak into the frozen chalk. So this water formed streams which carved out valleys on the Downs. The rapidly melting snow during the last ice age also carried rock and soil from the hillsides on to the floors of the valleys.

The dry valley at Devil's Dyke near Brighton

When the climate became warmer, the frozen ground eventually thawed and the water soaked into the little holes in the chalk, leaving the valleys dry. These dry valleys, known in Sussex as coombes, are V-shaped with steep sides. The Devil’s Dyke, to the north of Brighton, is the most famous of all the chalk dry valleys. Patches of Clay-with-flints can be found in places on top of the Downs. This is the remains of some clay that was once on top of the chalk that got mixed up with flints from the chalk.


http://www.southdowns.gov.uk/...geology/geology-through-time

Now that whole story was derived from hundreds of years of study by thousands of geologists working out, piece by piece, how my chalk cliffs came about.

Now you, Faith, sit at your keyboard and attempt to dream up ways that you can cram that entire history of 125 million years into around 4,500 years.

Doesn't that sound a little absurd to you?

Maybe you could pick just one of the events in that list and give us an explanation for the chalk cliffs? The geologist's view is that it's created by these little critters - Coccolithophores

They're single celled algae - phyloplankton, with a calcium carbonate 'skin'. They inhabit the seas in vast qualities and fall onto the ocean floor when they die. They then fossilised and form chalk. They can be seen in the chalk cliffs - that's what they're made of, billions and billions of single celled organisms living and dying over millions of years.

Now how does a flood create that?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 11-18-2012 1:34 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by cavediver, posted 11-18-2012 7:00 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 150 by RAZD, posted 11-18-2012 2:33 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 151 of 409 (680223)
11-18-2012 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by RAZD
11-18-2012 2:33 PM


Re: PICTURE TOO BIG
Better?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by RAZD, posted 11-18-2012 2:33 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 152 of 409 (680224)
11-18-2012 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by cavediver
11-18-2012 7:00 AM


Re: Bible versus Geology
Rottingdean actually :-)

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by cavediver, posted 11-18-2012 7:00 AM cavediver has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(4)
Message 236 of 409 (680448)
11-19-2012 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Faith
11-19-2012 2:24 PM


Re: Another claim goes "poof"
Faith writes:

I'd already heard everything you said, Coyote, it isn't new to me, it's you who need to find out more about these things. And I haven't claimed I don't make errors, I've only given generalizations that I'm sure are true in the main and I know you are wrong. I'm sorry I can't just produce the evidence for you, I do have some but the rest isn't all that available, and it's an overwhelming task to try to come up with all the proof that would be needed not just on this subject but the dozen others this thread has already covered. I'm not writing papers for a journal, here.

The thing here Faith, is that when people first started looking for evidence of this flood they were doing it to prove the bible right. The gentlemen geologists were pretty much all believing Christians but the more they searched the more problems they found.

A couple of hundred years worth of objective science later and we have a vast quantity of properly published and peer reviewed science with the effect that ALL geolologists are certain that there was no world wide flood 4,300 years ago.

Simultaneously they have found evidence of a local flood in the area that you'd expect it at about the time you'd expect it.

The reason you can't answer the questions you are being asked here by reference to published science is because there is none that supports you. It really is as simple as that isn't it? If there was evidence you'd be showing it.

So the only reasonable conclusion is that the story in the book is a story of a local flood, not a glbal one.

Pretty much the entire religious community as well as the entire science community agree that the flood didn't happen the way you believe it to have, which makes you wrong I'm afraid.

It's perfectly possible to maintain your belief without believing in the utterly stupid - why not give it a try?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 2:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 3:43 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 246 of 409 (680464)
11-19-2012 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Faith
11-19-2012 3:43 PM


Re: Another claim goes "poof"
Faith writes:


Sorry, the Bible is the foundation. The facts do have to conform to it, and ultimately we'll see that to be the case. Meanwhile anything that contradicts the Bible has to go.

Well ok, I know that some people seem to need to just believe things. I don't understand it myself, but I know that it's a human trait.

What I really don't get is why you have to try to make it fit with reality - it doesn't and it can't and it will only get worse for you as our knowledge grows. Why can't you just call it magic in your head and get on with it? Why try to square a circle?

Francis Collins - born again Christian and head of the human genome project - had a phrase that stuck for me when tried to explain that evolution was true to other christians, he said some thing like "don't pitch your tent on a slope because in the morning you'll find yourself at the bottom of it".


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 3:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 4:06 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 261 of 409 (680484)
11-19-2012 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Faith
11-19-2012 4:19 PM


Re: Another claim goes "poof"
Faith writes:


It's known for DISSOLVING stuff. Soaking, saturating, dissolving.

Oh come on Faith - that's rediculous even for you.

My bathroom sink is made of marble, I put water in it. The kitchen work surface is granite. There's sand and flint on the beach. Ever tried dissolving a bloody rock? Ffs, it doesn't work - you need acids to do that, was it acid rain now?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 4:19 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 4:46 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(4)
Message 271 of 409 (680499)
11-19-2012 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
11-19-2012 4:46 PM


Re: The Flood dissolved stuff
Faith writes:


Oh come on Tangle that's REALLY ridiculous. The earth isn't made of marble, and the earth would have been pummeled by rain for 40 days already., Whatever could dissolve would dissolve. If it rains for even three days off and on where I am I get a six inch deep muddy stream outside my door. Don't tell me it's all that different where the rest of you live.

Oh, Good grief.

The mud you see in a flood is not rock dissolved in water, it's small pieces of all sorts of material - mostly top soil, humous and clays. If it comes off mountains it will also have small particles of rock that have been weathered down by erosion over time and picked up and carried in the water. When the water stands, it falls to the bottom as silt or sediment.

It's not dissolved. If it was dissolved it would have to crystalise out to be deposited, like the salt flats.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 4:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 309 of 409 (680693)
11-20-2012 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Faith
11-20-2012 11:19 AM


Re: The Flood dissolved stuff but ROCKS? Hardly
Faith writes:

What's very odd here is that I haven't said one word about dissolving ROCKS, you guys are making that up. Tangle and now you. I've said many times that the Flood would have dissolved WHATEVER COULD BE DISSOLVED.

I think you did mean that rocks would dissolve didn't you? Theres's nothing much out there in the world to dissolve; if there was it would have dissolved last tuesday when i rained all day. But to prove it you now say...

..........so yeah, some rock would most likely dissolve.

This is chemistry, not geology, and inorganic chemistry at that - the easy stuff you get taught at age 14. Rocks don't dissolve in water - period.

I have no idea what rock existed before the Flood

They would be the soluble kind. Sugar Candy Mountain Range?

Granite didn't because that's a product of volcanism and volcanoes didn't occur until the Flood. Etc. etc.

'Nuff said.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:19 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by foreveryoung, posted 11-20-2012 7:40 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 312 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 8:56 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6954
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 346 of 409 (680771)
11-21-2012 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by Faith
11-21-2012 5:38 AM


Re: The flood and the geological column
Faith writes:

It's the layering itself that I consider to be major evidence for the Flood, and the old earth explanation of the layers is inconsistent with the mechanics of how layering could occur and imposes fantastic scenario-building nonsense on what is nothing but a mechanically produced slab of rock.

Well so far, you haven't shown us how footprints and fossils are preserved in your layers and your only explanation for the massively differences in dates of the layers is that the dating methods must be wrong.

We now have the problem that the 'column's are interspaced with igneous rock which, according to you couldn't have been formed until after the flood as volcanoes didn't exist before.

Sadly, the igneous and metamorphic rock is both the oldest (yeh, I know, I know) and the lowest down the column. So we have a thing called basement rock which is on the bottom of the pile supporting all the sedimentary layers above - and guess what, it's igneous! Weird co-incidence, eh?

Now how did volcanic rock get to be at the bottom when it should be at the top?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Faith, posted 11-21-2012 5:38 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by Faith, posted 11-21-2012 9:03 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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