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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
GDR
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Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(7)
Message 1399 of 5179 (688468)
01-22-2013 6:13 PM


Here is a quote from the old version of Matthew 5.

quote:
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Somewhere along the line I guess I missed the re-write. Apparently it now says “don’t resist an evil person but simply put a slug between his eyes, and then pray for him”.

Edited by GDR, : typo


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


Replies to this message:
 Message 1401 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 6:27 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(7)
Message 1404 of 5179 (688492)
01-22-2013 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1401 by Faith
01-22-2013 6:27 PM


I don't imagine He meant this either which is again from Matthew.

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

I imagine that somewhere there are statistics about this, but I would be willing to bet that there are more children die because people have guns in their home that there are from people breaking into their homes. I haven't read this whole thread but I assume that someone has pointed out the tragedy that happened in Connecticut was possible because the killer's mother had guns in the house.

We all want to keep our children safe which of course goes without saying. It is my contention, that my kids when I was raising them were safer because I didn't have guns in the house.

I'll go to the CNN web site right now and run down the stories that involve the use of guns in the US.

http://www.cnn.com/...tice/texas-college-shooting/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/...evada-police-murder-suicide/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/...justice/new-mexico-shooting/index.html

I just did this at a random time and there were three incidents involving guns on that one news site.The more guns are accessible the more these types of incidents happen. There were no stories of how some one saved themselves or their kids because they had guns in the house. I can't remember the last time I read of lives being saved because some one had armed themselves against attackers.

The message that Jesus espouses in the Bible is that we are to put out trust in Him. He died so that we don't have to walk around in fear. Just read the "Sermon on the Mount" and tell me that Jesus would advocate the idea of a gun in every home or the idea of armed guards in schools.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1401 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 6:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1405 by vimesey, posted 01-22-2013 9:13 PM GDR has responded
 Message 1407 by Faith, posted 01-23-2013 12:31 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 1406 of 5179 (688497)
01-22-2013 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1405 by vimesey
01-22-2013 9:13 PM


vimesey writes:

Hi GDR - there's some data here from 1999, relating to children's accidental deaths from guns http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm

Thanks Vimesey. I think that data makes my point. Kids are far safer in a home without guns in it.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1405 by vimesey, posted 01-22-2013 9:13 PM vimesey has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(6)
Message 1418 of 5179 (688561)
01-23-2013 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1407 by Faith
01-23-2013 12:31 AM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
Hi Faith

Faith writes:

I went through all this with myself years ago and for a while tended toward pacifism, but came to the conclusion that the point of being armed is really more for protection of others including your own family than it is literally for SELF-defense. And after I'd read up on the history that led up to the second amendment (which I posted on this thread more than once, I think #57 was the first) I concluded that it's a necessity in a fallen world. Yes, Christians trust Christ to protect us but we can't just stand by and do nothing while others are hurt or killed. And besides, how many Americans (or Canadians) are serious Christians? Should they all be required to trust God?

My point was that you are putting yourself and your family at greater risk by having guns in the house. In that last post I simply went to the CNN web site and found 3 current instances of death and/or injury because of the use of guns.

You make the point of living in a fallen world. Fine, the point of Christ’s message was that His followers were not to acquiesce to the fallen world but were to stand against it. Paul describes the weapons that we are to use in Ephesians 6.

quote:
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

You then quoted Luke 22:

quote:
35 Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. 36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." 38 The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied.

Look at what Jesus is saying. This is part of Christ’s whole message. He says to them when he sent them out earlier without even purse, bag or sandals that they had no need of anything else. Then he says to them, that now, in spite of that you still don’t get it and you want to arm yourselves in preparation for going up against the Romans in Jerusalem. His point of view as always was that you don’t fight evil with more evil. In the end He closes off the conversation by saying “It is enough”. It isn’t that two swords are enough, he is saying that is the end of the conversation. Once again, that is confirmed when they are dealing with the Romans and Peter draws his sword he tells Peter that “those who live by the sword die by the sword”.

Frankly, IMHO, according to the scriptures, the stand that you and others take on guns makes you part of the problem that Christ taught about instead of being part of the solution, which is the same message that Jesus gave to the disciples concerning their desire to be armed with swords.

Faith writes:

You say you found no stories of guns saving anybody but there are such stories out there. Earlier in this thread I posted the video of the man with a concealed carry handgun who stopped a burglary by two men, one with a gun and one with a baseball bat, which you can see HERE.

I have no doubt that there are instances where lives that were threatened have been saved because someone had a gun by the bed or in their glove compartment, and you have come up with some examples. However, how about this for a challenge? I’ll take the one instance that we just saw in Connecticut. A young man had access to the guns in the house because his mother felt like you do. I’ll take this one instance that cost 27 lives, most of them very young children, plus numerous injuries. Can you find me using as many incidents as you want where 27 lives have been spared because of private citizens arming themselves with guns?

This woman, by holding your views on guns cost not only her own life, the life of her son but the death of 25 others. Her arming herself has brought unbelievable heartache to hundreds.

Many crimes involving guns are committed with guns that have been stolen out of people’s homes or cars. Here is a statement that is part of this report.

quote:
It’s very difficult to say what percentage of guns used in crimes have been stolen, said Randy Beach, a special agent in charge for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Pensacola, where a Gun Crime Response Team was formed in July.

Beach was pretty confident estimating that nearly half of the guns used in gun crimes have been stolen.


By having a gun in your home you are putting yourself and others at greater risk than they would be otherwise and in doing that you are doing it in opposition to the Scriptures.

Edited by GDR, : typo


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1407 by Faith, posted 01-23-2013 12:31 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1423 by Faith, posted 01-23-2013 10:52 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 1432 by GDR, posted 01-24-2013 11:25 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(4)
Message 1432 of 5179 (688667)
01-24-2013 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1418 by GDR
01-23-2013 2:43 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
Faith writes:

1) No, it's the people who want to take away our gun rights who are the problem and not the solution.

Well how is it working so far? In our discussion we have already clearly shown that there are more lives lost due to the ready access to guns than have ever been saved by armed citizen’s protecting themselves. I challenged you to find in total the number of people saved from having guns as compared to the one recent incident in Connecticut where 27 lives were lost due to the guns being kept in the home of one highly disturbed youth. You didn’t and couldn’t respond.

Faith writes:

2) I have no problem living by Christ's standard for myself, but He was talking to individuals, NOT TO NATIONS. In a nation the whole population is never Christian, and Christians do have the obligation to protect our families and others, and to ask whole populations to give up the right to self defense is to subject them to many forms of violence up to mass murder.

Jesus lived in a country that had been captured by the Romans, where the citizens lived in fear of them and in even more fear of the Herodian puppet government that the Romans used to do much of their dirty work. Herod the Great executed his own wife and children who he believed were plotting against him. He ordered that at his death his army was to put to death many of the leading citizens of Judea so that there would be mourning at the time of his death. (Fortunately those orders weren’t carried out.) We have the Biblical account of the slaughter of the innocents. Jesus and His fellow Jews had every reason as individuals to fear the authorities. So yes Jesus was talking to them as individuals but a nation as always is simply the sum total of it individual citizens. Taking your argument to its logical extreme I would think that you would be fully supportive of Iran have nuclear weapons.

Faith writes:

3) To my mind the reasons for citizens to be armed far oustrip even the real dangers you worry about, and certainly all the emotion-driven propaganda-driven arguments against guns.

It is not an emotion driven argument against guns. It is simply the factual argument that the proliferation of guns causes far more deaths, whether it be at the hands of crazed individuals such as in Connecticut, or as a result of well meaning people like yourself maintaining these weapons in the home.

Faith writes:

4) Jesus is going to His death. The situation is changing. Now they may need weapons. There is no other reason for His saying what He said. They made no move in favor of weapons, it was His idea. Peter's cutting off the ear of the soldier was wrong because Jesus was intended to die. You twist the scriptures. Go read Matthew Henry's commentary on that passage at Blue Letter Bible. Jesus is telling them things are going to change and now they will need their purses and a sword which they didn't need up until that point.

Why look at a commentary. Why not look at the Bible and look at the context. As a backdrop we can use the Beatitudes where Jesus says that blessed are those that mourn, the meek or gentle, the merciful, the peacemakers as well as those who are persecuted for following Him and His message. Now, I’ll re-quote the passage that you used to support your position that Jesus has no problem with the idea of guns in the home.

quote:
35 Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. 36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." 38 The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied.

In this quote the reference that Jesus makes in verse 37, (“And he was numbered with the transgressors) is Isaiah 53 verse 12. That statement is made at the conclusion of the passage of “The Suffering Servant”. Verse 9 from that passage says this:

quote:
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth (emphasis mine)
This passage is about non-violence and the fact that Jesus is saying that they didn`t need a sword before so why would they need one now.

Jesus is saying this right before, and as part of the story of His entry into Jerusalem. So let`s look at this passage in context of what He has said and done earlier and what He was about to do. I talked about His non-violent message in the Beatitudes and as we see at the beginning of the quote from Luke that their mission had been peaceful. Jesus constantly used the non-violent image of Himself of a shepherd watching over the lambs. That is part of the back-drop to His entry into Jerusalem. In Matthew`s account we have already talked about Jesus saying to Pater that ``that those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword``.

Jesus consistently refers back to the Hebrew Scriptures in order to make the point that he is the messiah the prophets talked about and at the same time referencing the scriptures that refer to the messiah as being a man of non-violence and peace. He obviously references the peaceful message in Zechariah 9 by riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. Here is that passage:

quote:
9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. 10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the war-horses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.

Jesus by riding into Jerusalem on a donkey is not only making a messianic claim but is at the same time proclaiming a message of conquering evil by peaceful means. He isn’t riding in on a war-horse claiming a victory but is proclaiming the message that “the weak will be made strong” and that it is the meek who inherit the earth. The whole message is that we are to exhibit the same kind of courage that Jesus had in overcoming the fear that is expressed in his prayer at Gethsemane when He went into Jerusalem. The kind of meekness and non-violence that Jesus advocates requires true courage, and that is what God through Jesus is asking of us. We aren’t to give into fear by arming ourselves with swords or guns.

Let’s look at part of Jesus’ conversation with Pilate from John 18 :

quote:
36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.

Once again Jesus is saying that if we are to be members of His Kingdom that we are not to take up the sword.

We can next look at Jesus on the cross asking the Father to forgive those that crucified Him. He doesn’t do what the Maccabees did in calling for those that put them to death to be punished by God. He doesn’t call for his followers to gain revenge for his death.

Also of course the message of the cross is that death as we know it is not the final answer. We don’t have to live in fear by arming ourselves. Jesus took this message to the cross and God vindicated and confirmed that message for all time by resurrecting Jesus.

We can also in the epistles see that the early Christians understood this message as well. We don’t see them arming themselves militarily but by arming themselves as Paul writes about in this beautifully put allegory of how God wants us to arm ourselves. I know I quoted this before but it is worth quoting again from Ephesians 6.

quote:
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

I suggest that it is not a good idea to allow our political and sense of nationalism to form our Christian beliefs. It should be the other way around.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1418 by GDR, posted 01-23-2013 2:43 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1434 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2013 12:39 PM GDR has responded
 Message 1450 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 4:20 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(3)
Message 1440 of 5179 (688681)
01-24-2013 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1434 by ICANT
01-24-2013 12:39 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
ICANT writes:

The lowest survey showed 800,000 people used a gun in self defence in a year to protect themselves, their family or another individual.

The statistics that you are shown here are misleading and here is CNN article written by a former speech writer for President George W Bush named David Frum

http://www.cnn.com/.../30/opinion/frum-guns-safer/index.html

Here is a wiki article on gun violence in the US. One of the statements made in this report is this:

quote:
States in the highest quartile for gun ownership had homicide rates 114% higher than states in the lowest quartile of gun ownership. Non-gun-related homicide rates were not significantly associated with rates of firearm ownership.

ICANT writes:

Present your facts instead of your assertions.

I agree. That is a fair comment but the truth is that anyone on this forum will be able to find statistics that back up their position so in the end all any of us are making are assertions.

Just for the record I am very pro-American. I’ve always lived in Canada but my wife is a true Yank, (a New Englander from Boston,) and I have several American grand-kids as I have son who married one of you and moved down there. I love visiting in the US and I very much enjoy the friendliness and openness of the American people. This is not attack on your wonderful country which in many cases has done so much more than any other country ever to bring relief and aid to the rest of the world. When assistance is needed you guys are virtually always the first ones there and I for one am grateful.

I will say this though. Our Prime Minister is a big hockey fan and we often see him sitting along with his kids in the stands at hockey games. Do you see your President being able to do that? I humbly suggest that readily available guns are one of the reasons for that.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1434 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2013 12:39 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1444 by dronestar, posted 01-24-2013 3:31 PM GDR has responded
 Message 1446 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2013 4:02 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(3)
Message 1464 of 5179 (688711)
01-24-2013 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1444 by dronestar
01-24-2013 3:31 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
GDR writes:

This is not attack on your wonderful country which in many cases has done so much more than any other country ever to bring relief and aid to the rest of the world.

dronester writes:

Unless you are referring to 'relief from living,' and 'aid to the Grim Reaper,' it seems you are not acquainted with america's body of work.

I don't agree with the US position on such things as Viet Nam or Iraq but however, when there is a natural disaster or some other calamity the Yanks are the first ones there and in general ask for nothing in return.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1444 by dronestar, posted 01-24-2013 3:31 PM dronestar has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 1465 of 5179 (688721)
01-24-2013 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1446 by ICANT
01-24-2013 4:02 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
Alright you have given me some examples that you are saying saved lives by people having guns in their home. We are still a long way from the 27 lives lost in just one incident in Connectcut. Lets’ look at your first example.
quote:
VERONA — Earl Jones had just turned off his new TV shortly after 2 a.m. Monday when he heard a bang in the basement.
The 92-year-old Boone County farmer walked eight paces to get his loaded .22 caliber rifle from behind the bedroom door. He unwrapped a beige cloth and returned to the living room, sitting in a chair with clear view – and shot – of the basement door, waiting with the gun across his lap.
Some 15 minutes later, when he heard footsteps moving closer up the stairs, he raised the rifle to his eye. The intruder kicked open the door. Jones fixed his aim on the center of the man’s chest and fired a single shot. The Boone County Sheriff later announced the death of the intruder, Lloyd (Adam) Maxwell, 24, of Richmond, Ky.
“These people aren’t worth any more to me than a groundhog,” Jones told the Enquirer. “They have our country in havoc. We got so many damned crooked people walking around today.”

How about this man saying this gun is loaded leave or I’ll shoot. More than likely it wasn’t at all necessary to shoot the man. However, I agree that it was the gun that protected the man whether he shot him or not.
Nevertheless you are a Christian. What do you think of the heart and soul of man who has reached the age of 92 and takes great pride in killing a man and saying that that life was worth nothing more than a groundhog. I suggest that this is the mentality that is bred in the hearts and minds of the population that thinks that it is alright to shoot first and ask questions later.
Here is your second example
quote:
HENDERSON, N.C. — A 14-year-old Henderson boy calmly described in a 911 call how he shot an intruder in a home invasion last week.
"I just shot the man. He came around the corner. I shot him. He broke the whole glass out (of the back door)," the teen told the 911 dispatcher.
Authorities said Anthony Henderson Jr. 19, broke into the home at 586 S. Lynnbank Road on Thursday while the teen and his 17-year-old sister were home.
The boy told the dispatcher that Henderson pointed a handgun at him, but Vance County Sheriff Peter White said deputies found no weapon on Henderson.
Henderson stumbled outside after being shot and was found dead on the lawn.

Once again the intruder is shot without question by this time a 14 year old without any attempt to get the intruder to leave. He just shot him as he walked around the corner. Shoot first and ask questions later

Example 3

quote:
LOGANVILLE, Ga. — A woman hiding in her attic with children shot an intruder multiple times before fleeing to safety Friday.
The incident happened at a home on Henderson Ridge Lane in Loganville around 1 p.m. The woman was working in an upstairs office when she spotted a strange man outside a window, according to Walton County Sheriff Joe Chapman. He said she took her 9-year-old twins to a crawlspace before the man broke in using a crowbar.
But the man eventually found the family.
"The perpetrator opens that door. Of course, at that time he's staring at her, her two children and a .38 revolver," Chapman told Channel 2’s Kerry Kavanaugh.
The woman then shot him five times, but he survived, Chapman said. He said the woman ran out of bullets but threatened to shoot the intruder if he moved.
"She's standing over him, and she realizes she's fired all six rounds. And the guy's telling her to quit shooting," Chapman said.
The woman ran to a neighbor's home with her children. The intruder attempted to flee in his car but crashed into a wooded area and collapsed in a nearby driveway, Chapman said.
Deputies arrested 32-year-old Atlanta resident Paul Slater in connection with the crime. Chapman said they found him on the ground saying, "Help me. I'm close to dying." Slater was taken to Gwinnett Medical Center for treatment. Chapman said Slater was shot in the face and neck.

In this case we don’t really know if she gave the intruder a chance to leave and she may well have fired the gun with good reason and saved her family.
Ezample 4
quote:
Dallas police said a woman shot at two people who kicked in the door to her house late Wednesday morning, killing one.
The shooting occurred at about 11:30 a.m. in the 7200 block of Concordia Drive.
Dallas police said the woman was home alone when she heard a noise -- two men had kicked in the front door of her house.
She confronted the two men as they reached the second-floor landing and shot at them several times, police said.
The intruders ran out the front door, and one of the men collapsed from a gunshot wound, police said.
He was transported to Methodist Hospital, where he was pronounced dead. The other man is still on the run.
Investigators said a gun recovered at the home indicates that at least one of the intruders was armed.
Charles Brown, the father of the 22-year-old woman who fired the shots, said he is proud of his daughter.
"Yeah, it is -- it's puffed out because I'm real proud of her because I taught her that," he said. "I taught my girls that -- to defend themselves when someone come to hurt them, and apparently she listened."
Brown said their home has been broken into once before.
"I'm feeling real disgusted about this neighborhood at this moment, that a man can't go to work and make an honest day's living without some thug breaking into his house," he said.
Because his daughter works at night and sleeps during the day, he left the gun by her pillow, just like he does every day, Brown said.
He said he will now teach his daughter how to forgive herself for taking a life.
"I really don't have a problem with what my baby done to them," he said. "I just hate that she hesitated and didn't get them both."

I think one thing that is interesting here. I’d suggest that burglars in Dallas would anticipate there being a gun in the house and as we see in this article one of the burglars was armed. I am sure that there have been cases in Canada where a thief with a gun has broken into a house but I don’t know of any. They don’t feel the need to be armed because they wouldn’t anticipate that the residents would be armed.
I also note that the father of the woman who shot the intruders just hated the fact that she hadn’t killed both of them in spite of the fact that it wouldn’t have made her any safer. This is the mentality that evolves from the type of gun mentality that you espouse.
Another point I’d make is that you are using examples where you believe lives were spared. Frankly I do have considerable empathy for the victims of the crimes in all these examples but frankly we have no idea whether or not their lives were saved. What would be more to the point would be to give examples of people who lost their lives because of intruders in their homes where they would have been saved if they had had a gun. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen as I know for a fact it does, but it still my contention that people are safer in their homes when there is no gun in the home.

GDR writes:

I will say this though. Our Prime Minister is a big hockey fan and we often see him sitting along with his kids in the stands at hockey games. Do you see your President being able to do that? I humbly suggest that readily available guns are one of the reasons for that.

ICANT writes:

That is great. But if you take the makeup of the citizens of Canada and the citizens of the US you will find that our homicide rate and that of Canada is not very different. Check Here


Alright, let’s check your link.
http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.ca/...tml#.UQHGtb_BHxQ
It starts by saying that the murder rate in Canada is 1.94 per 100,000 and in the US it is 6.42. The rate in the US is 3.3 times higher than in Canada. This survey then goes on to say that this isn’t representative because:
quote:
That's important because of the pattern we found in the United States for who kills who. Here, we found that the vast majority of the offenders in homicides are of the same race as their victims. Because the United States has very large minority populations (blacks and Hispanics) which are largely absent in Canada, we must exclude the numbers of homicides of black and Hispanic victims from the U.S. totals to make a much more accurate apples-to-apples kind of comparison of U.S. homicides with Canadian homicides.
The chart below reveals what we found when we compared Canadian homicides with the portions of the U.S. population that most closely resembles the Canadian population:
Nice. They simply discount all murders or a black or Hispanic is the victim, even if the perpetrator was white black or turquoise. Is this your basis for saying that our murder rates aren’t very different? Just for the record Canada is very multi-cultural and we take the death of our minorities as seriously as we do our people of European heritage like myself.
I’m afraid that I have considerable difficulty reconciling your position with either reason, compassion or particularly the Christian faith.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1446 by ICANT, posted 01-24-2013 4:02 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1466 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 7:33 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(3)
Message 1467 of 5179 (688724)
01-24-2013 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1450 by Faith
01-24-2013 4:20 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
Faith writes:

This discussion about how many lives are saved or lost is not the important thing to me. The important thing is retaining our second amendment right. Whatever can be done to improve safety without imperiling that right is fine with me.

I find that hard to fathom. You are saying that your second amendment rights, as you understand them, are more important than the lives of American citizens. Hmmmm... WWJD.

Faith writes:

NOT consulting commentaries when there is a dispute about the meaning of a Biblical text is stupid, as if you and you alone know the meaning that recognized teachers don't.


We can both find commentaries that will support our own positions on specific texts. I have shelves of books that I have read that give differing views on how to understand the Bible. I’m not relying on my own understanding. My understanding has been formed by years in the church and having read the views of a great many different Christian teachers, scholars and theologians.

My point was that as we disagreed on the understanding of the text then we should consider the context. When the statement is taken in context I frankly can see no basis for your understanding of the text and the context is frankly totally supportive of mine.

Faith writes:

I reject all your theology anyway, GDR, there's no point in discussing it. You're one of those here who makes it up to suit yourself. It's not worth it to me even to read through it. I listen to and read the best of the best preachers and teachers, there's no point in getting all caught up in a self-invented system like yours.

That is so typical. Whatever you do don’t read anything that doesn't agree with your views. As I said, I have spent considerable time in the last number of years reading various authors, from a wide range of views on the subject in question, and my views have evolved over the years as I continue to learn still.

I'm interested in knowing how you consider that I make things up while you have complete understanding of all that the Bible has to tell us. The hubris is breathtaking.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1450 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 4:20 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1468 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 7:43 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 1471 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 8:36 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(2)
Message 1470 of 5179 (688729)
01-24-2013 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1466 by Faith
01-24-2013 7:33 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
Faith writes:

Stop blaming this on guns. If the Principal or a teacher or two had had a gun this probably wouldn't have happened. The problem is the law that forbids guns on the school premises and announces that to all would-be murderers.

So the plan is that this kid, after killing his mother wouldn’t have gone to the school and started killing, because he would know that the Principal had a gun. Remember he went there preparing to die which is the case of all of the similar situations that I can recall. First off the principal would have to have the gun under lock and key and it would take time to get it and to get to where this kid is. Then we have a gun fight with all of these children around. It might have saved lives, it might have cost lives we’ll never know.

Faith writes:

Why is "life" the criterion for everything here? Why is CRIMINAL "life" favored here? So many here are happy enough to kill INNOCENT life in the womb but get all hand-wringingly concerned about someone killed in the commission of a crime, so upside down is the moral sense in this nation these days. The intruder was a criminal threatening the home owner. I might prefer that the man had shot him in the leg or something rather than shooting to kill but you don't know in the first seconds whether the intruder was armed or not and such decisions may not be reasonably possible. LET CRIMINALS KNOW THEY MIGHT BE KILLED IN THE ACT AND CRIME COULD GO DOWN DRAMATICALLY. All this perverted "concern" about criminals just perpetuates the crime problem.

Interesting that the concern for the lives of others even if they are a criminal is now a perversion. I wonder what that makes Christ? I guess Jesus should have said to the thief on the cross – too bad loser you’re life is worth nothing and you’re toast.

Interesting that you believe that the fear of guns would decrease the crime rate. I didn’t know what I would find but I googled the murder rate in states with the death penalty compared to states without it. In every year the murder rate was higher in states with the death penalty.
Link Maybe criminals aren’t as afraid of the possibility of death for thgeir crimes as you think they are.

Faith writes:

Then the case of the 14 year old shooting the 19 year old intruder. Again your sympathies are with the intruder. Why? I imagine the fear of the 14 year old myself in being confronted with an intruder, and the fear of the victims of all these situations. Why do you care so much about the perpetrator rather than the victim? It would be nice I suppose if the victim had his wits about him enough to make the refined decisions you'd like him to have made, but it's possible to THINK the intruder was armed and be wrong about it, and in that moment of fear shoot. The intruder broke the glass out of the door but you think maybe this wasn't a criminal home invasion just a case of shooting without thinking? WHY ARE YOU DEFENDING THE CRIMINAL? LET CRIMINALS KNOW THEY MIGHT GET SHOT AND YOU'D DRASTICALLY REDUCE THIS SORT OF CRIME.

I am not defending the criminal and I do have considerable sympathy with what the 14 year old did. All I was saying is that the boy shot the individual just as he came around the corner without any hesitation. Maybe it was the right thing to do and maybe not. I just find the whole thing troubling and I’m not suggesting that there are easy answers. In the end though we don’t know what the outcome would have been in the 14 year old hadn’t had a gun and frankly we don’t know what affect the fact that the killing of someone will have on the rather fragile psyche of a 14 year old.

Faith writes:

Your assessment of everything in terms of your nicey nice version of the "Christian faith" overlooks that God is a God of LAW. Jesus died to save us from our violations of the LAW. God takes His laws THAT SERIOUSLY that He had to send His Son to die for us so that we wouldn't have to suffer the just conse quences ourselves. There is NOTHING in scripture that is soft on crime and sin, GDR, there is only the call that all us sinners repent and be saved. To favor criminals in a nation is NOT what God wants. Take the gospel to them so that they may give up their life of crime, THAT's what we're to do. But God has given us governors and police and laws against crime to protect us, AND the right to bear arms. There is nothing in the Bible either OT or NT that treats criminals as victims as so many these days seem to do and often based on perverted ideas of Christianity.

Jesus says this in Matthew 7:

quote:
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Paul says this in Galatians 5:

quote:
14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
The point of what Jesus taught was that it wasn’t about keeping laws. It is all about the heart. If everyone truly did love our neighbour as ourselves then we don’t have break-ins, murders or wars. Yes we live in a very imperfect world but as Christians we are given the task of reflecting the love of Christ back to the world. It is not about favouring criminals it is about knowing that all life comes from God and all life has value, yes, even the life of criminals. God has created a society where it is possible to bear arms. He has given us free will. This in no way means that it is His desire.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1466 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 7:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1472 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 8:41 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(4)
Message 1474 of 5179 (688735)
01-24-2013 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1471 by Faith
01-24-2013 8:36 PM


Re: Some cases where guns would have helped and where they did help
Here is an interesting link to an article saying that there have been 919 gun related deaths since and including Newtown in the US. Several were gun accidents that killed children.

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/...aths1200a.jpg

Faith writes:

Let me just answer this piece of sophistic trash. OUR second amendment rights PROTECT AMERICAN CITIZENS, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT you Bible twister. You all emphasize possible dangers in the possession of firearms that you can't even prove and you ignore all the claims of many here that their defensive uses are underreported and far more telling than your supposed stats. And you ignore the facts many have reported on how Americans have always had guns and taken them for granted until these vicious homicides started happening AND NOW YOU WANT TO TAKE THEM AWAY FROM US, and you don't even recognize how CRAZY that is and how it would put the entire nation in danger.

How many lives are saved or lost by the NORMAL possession of guns is a trumped-up issue in the service of depriving us of the means of self defense as NORMALLY possessed by NORMAL citizens since the beginning of this country, and yes is FAR less important TO THE SAFETY OF AMERICAN CITIZENS than preserving our right to possess them.

This is evil twisted logic that you've all swallowed that can only lead to the destruction of this nation. You may not think that's what you want but it's what your thinking would bring about.

It is you Faith that said that it is your second amendment rights that are of primary importance and that the number of lives it might cost is secondary. My point remains. The US is a more dangerous place because of the number of guns that are readily available. To me it is obvious but just as obvious is the fact that you don’t see it that way.

The second amendment was signed in 1791. The world and specifically the US was a very different place back then. The idea that a bill passed into law to deal with an issue that existed in 1791 should not be reviewed and possibly revised 221 years later is bizarre. The US is quite obviously a far different country today than it was then and the constitution should be a living thing that adapts to current realities. However, there have been others who have made that argument far better than I ever could.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1471 by Faith, posted 01-24-2013 8:36 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1480 by vimesey, posted 01-25-2013 2:27 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(3)
Message 1830 of 5179 (691168)
02-21-2013 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1812 by ICANT
02-16-2013 11:30 AM


Re: Self-defence
ICANT writes:

It is infringing on my right to be able to face the enemy with equal weapons.

Obviously, this must be the truth for everyone so I'm sure that you would have no problem with either Iran or N. Korea having nuclear weapons as they obviously have the right to face their enemies, (namely the US), with equal weapons as well.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1812 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2013 11:30 AM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1831 by Faith, posted 02-21-2013 3:38 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 1846 of 5179 (691234)
02-21-2013 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1831 by Faith
02-21-2013 3:38 AM


Re: Self-defence
Faith writes:

What a bunch of politically correct idiocy GDR. Right, it isn't that the second amendment is intended to protect US from our enemies, but now according to global PC we're to give our enemies the right to attack us via our amendment too.

OUR AMENDMENT FOR OUR DEFENSE, get it?

DEFENSE, GDR, DEFENSE, that's the purpose of the amendment, against aggressors AGAINST us.

That's all ICANT said. What is the matter with you liberals? You want us all dead obviously. Fortunately that will include you too.

No I don't agree with ICANT that we have the right to be armed to the degree of a modern army, but you should be tarred and feathered for your insane remark. And so should AZPaul for cheering it.

I think you have kinda missed the point Faith. I took an obvious example to make that point. Nobody wants to see nuclear weapons in the hands of the governments of those nations.

You say that you should have the freedom to go and purchase a hand gun or even semi-automatic weapons for the purposes of defence. If I am selling you that gun I have no real way of knowing if it is for your defence or if you intend to use in some nearby classroom. If I am a gun dealer I have to go on the assumption that you aren't going to commit a crime with the weapon, and even if I do have suspicions about your motives you still can demand your rights that I sell it to you.

We both have our doubts about the governments of Iran and North Korea but they claim that they have the right to the defence of their countries. Why then should they not have the same rights to arm themselves on a national scale as you do on an individual scale.

On a national scale the world is a safer place when there are fewer countries with nuclear weapons and by extension I would suggest that our individual countries are safer when there are fewer people with hand guns which they claim are for their defence.

Another point I'd make is that I have a right to self-defence as well and if my neighbour owns the type of weapons that we are talking about here then my safety has been compromised in my opinion. If the weapon is discharged it come through the walls and injure me or my family or for that matter it could be stolen and used against me. I should have the right to my self-defence and prevent my neighbour from being armed.

You are making yourself the final arbiter as to who is good and who is evil -who should be allowed to be armed and who shouldn't. You aren't God and you don't have a lock on all truth, and for that matter your views are contrary to the views that Jesus espoused, whether it be by arming yourself with a modern day sword, or with having someone who disagrees with you tarred and feathered.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1831 by Faith, posted 02-21-2013 3:38 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1847 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2013 12:08 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1849 of 5179 (691256)
02-21-2013 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1847 by Rahvin
02-21-2013 12:08 PM


Re: Self-defence
Rahvin writes:

That's not entirely true. Mutually assured destruction has proven to work extremely well as a deterrent.

I think that it would work equally well with the most potent weapon available being a lot less potent. A nuclear war could virtually, if not actually, finish civilization. I still maintain that the world would be better off without any nuclear weapons.

Rahvin writes:

Only an idiot would give a nuclear weapon to a terrorist organization or otherwise allow a warhead to be used even in a covert fashion; analysis of the fallout from a nuclear initiation can readily identify the source of the fissile material used, and the source nation would be attacked in retribution (in other words, if North Korea gave Al Qaeda a nuke that was then detonated in the US, the US would quickly be able to tell that North Korea was the source, and would retaliate).

Idiot's exist and given enough time one of them will be in a position to provide a terrorist organization with a nuclear weapon. Don't forget, some of these groups have no problem with indiscriminate killing or blowing themselves up for their cause. These individuals can be found in our own societies so I don't think that Iran would be immune. It might not happen in our life time but as the technology improves nuclear weaponry will be more readily accessible. I still maintain that it would just be a matter of time. The trouble is, the genie is out of the box now and I have no idea of how it could be put back.

It's a pity that our ability to care for our neighbour hasn't advanced anywhere near as quickly as our ability to kill him.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1847 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2013 12:08 PM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1850 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2013 2:15 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 1958 of 5179 (692859)
03-08-2013 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1951 by ICANT
03-07-2013 8:16 PM


Re: Militias could always be called to duty by the highest authority...
ICANT writes:

If I am firing at you with my 30.06 you will be past 100 yards from me and at that distance it makes no difference how fast you can run. I can reload and fire before you cover 15 yards.

But if you are marching down my street I am not going to shoot you just because you are on my street. But when you come across the sidewalk you are within 10 yards or 30 feet from my front door. That makes a lot of difference in how much amunition I might need.

God Bless,

The juxtaposition of the "God Bless" and the preceding statements just makes me shake my head. I'm sure you read your Bible but do you pay any attention to what Jesus actually says?
Try the beatitudes or maybe His statement that"he who lives by the sword dies by the sword" just for starters.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1951 by ICANT, posted 03-07-2013 8:16 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1959 by Omnivorous, posted 03-08-2013 8:12 AM GDR has responded

  
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