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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Rahvin
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Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(3)
Message 3 of 5179 (683933)
12-14-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coragyps
12-14-2012 3:39 PM


The existence of legal firearms only makes it easier to acquire firearms - legally or illegally.

Besides, current gun control laws have loopholes you could drive the Death Star through - like the gun show exception.

Does it really matter if they were acquired legally? In the case of school shootings, most times the guns are legally owned by a parent and stolen by the kid who shoots up the school. Is that "legally" or "illegally" acquisition?

If the guns had never been legal in the first place, the parent wouldn't have the guns to steal. The gun shows wouldn't have the guns to sell. Only criminals would own guns...but there would be fewer guns, and school shootings aren't generally perpetrated by the same people who participate in gang violence or other centers of illegal firearm possession.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Coragyps, posted 12-14-2012 3:39 PM Coragyps has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2012 4:19 PM Rahvin has responded
 Message 7 by dronestar, posted 12-14-2012 4:42 PM Rahvin has responded
 Message 11 by Coragyps, posted 12-14-2012 4:49 PM Rahvin has not yet responded
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2012 6:33 PM Rahvin has responded

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 6 of 5179 (683936)
12-14-2012 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
12-14-2012 4:19 PM


Well, this is true. For instance, this is how Japan maintains such a low rate of gun homicide - they didn't have any guns to begin with, and they prevented people from getting any more of them.

In the US, though, even if you banned guns tomorrow there'd still be 80 guns per every 100 people, or more than 2.5 million firearms. If you want to reduce the number of guns, you're talking about a program to confiscate guns, primarily from people who have not ever used them to any harmful purpose. Even in a country with no Second Amendment, we'd still have the Fourth Amendment, so how could such a program be legal?

"Make guns illegal" is a one-line simplification, not an overarching policy. Of course simply making firearms illegal wouldn't magically remove guns already in existence...and there are many, many guns already in the US.

But it would limit the ability to move guns. You couldn't just go to a gun show and buy one. Ammunition would no longer be legal. Spare parts would no longer be as easy to get. The basic ban of firearms would be a step, and possibly the largest step, but it wouldn't finish the job. We'd still almost certainly have mass gun violence in the short-medium term. Over long enough periods of time, gun possession would decrease on its own.

But why use confiscation? Use a gun-buyback program. Allow gun owners to voluntarily surrender firearms and ammunition and be compensated at least partially for their value. Combined with the threat of steep fees or even jail time for being caught owning guns (without the necessity of a door-to-door search), such an incentive would cause at least some percentage of gun owners to follow the new law.

Again - not a total solution. Just an acceleration of the reduction in firearm availability. And it bypasses any issues with the Fourth Amendment.

You don't need a police state and door-to-door warrantless searches to ban something.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2012 4:19 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2012 4:49 PM Rahvin has responded
 Message 30 by RAZD, posted 12-14-2012 5:30 PM Rahvin has responded

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 14 of 5179 (683946)
12-14-2012 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by dronestar
12-14-2012 4:42 PM


Re: guns versus mentality
Rahvin,

No matter how many tragedies happen in america, there will continue to be too many people fighting for the right to own guns.

Unfortunately I agree. The gun lobby is extremely strong. It would be a stretch just to close the gun show loophole - a big stretch. Gun control threads are always an intellectual exercise in wishful thinking.

I believe this shows that too many americans simply don't mind living in a violent, hateful society. (Perhaps the remainder actually like it.)

Can you elsewise explain this?

I believe that, as jar demonstrates, nonviolent people who own guns prioritize their own "rights" over solutions that would have a real effect. I believe that Constitution-worshipers refuse to alter what they consider an important part of that document regardless of the reasons. I believe that it's extremely easy to rationalize reasons to keep guns, like "protection against the government," even though those reasons also fall to pieces under even slight scrutiny.

I think that even great tragedies like school shootings are always "someone else's problem" because they happen to strangers for the vast majority of us, and it's difficult for a person to give up a certain extant right to lower the possibility of a potential future tragedy.

There are a lot of reasons, dronester. I think the "violent, hateful society" bit is essentially hyperbole. It makes for a neat soundbyte, but it offends more than it convinces.

I don't think most people are hateful, I think they're apathetic. Most people simply don't notice an ethical problem until it's directly pointed out to them, that's simply an unfortunate fact of the human mind.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by dronestar, posted 12-14-2012 4:42 PM dronestar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by dronestar, posted 12-14-2012 5:10 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(3)
Message 23 of 5179 (683955)
12-14-2012 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
12-14-2012 4:49 PM


You can't now "just go to a gun show and buy one." Gun vendors at gun shows have to follow the same laws at the gun show that they have to follow anywhere - they can't sell to you without running you through the FBI's criminal database, which requires ID, which is a requirement both of Federal law and of owning a Federal Firearms Dealer's license.

Only for dealers who regularly buy and sell firearms and are licensed to do so. Individuals can buy and sell firearms at gun shows without performing such checks. That's what the gun show loophole is.

quote:
Unfortunately, current federal law requires criminal background checks only for guns sold through licensed firearm dealers, which account for just 60% of all gun sales in the United States. A loophole in the law allows individuals not “engaged in the business” of selling firearms to sell guns without a license—and without processing any paperwork. That means that two out of every five guns sold in the United States change hands without a background check.

Though commonly referred to as the “Gun Show Loophole,” the “private sales” described above include guns sold at gun shows, through classified newspaper ads, the Internet, and between individuals virtually anywhere.

Unfortunately, only six states (CA, CO, IL, NY, OR, RI) require universal background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows. Three more states (CT, MD, PA) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Seven other states (HI, IA, MA, MI, NJ, NC, NE) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. Florida allows its counties to regulate gun shows by requiring background checks on all firearms purchases at these events. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the Gun Show Loophole.


From here.

That's great, for people who want money more than guns. But the reason that people have guns in the first place is because they wanted the gun more than they wanted the money. You can certainly get some guns off the street like this - people at the margins who have a short-term need to liquidize their firearm "asset" - but the very fact that people buy guns proves that you'd have to spend absurd amounts of money to make any dent in gun ownership.

Again, I never claimed it was a full solution. It's simply an incentive. It's a way to accelerate the attrition of firearm ownership after banning them, beyond just letting owners die and guns break and ammunition be expended until there aren't any more.

That's not to mention the distorting effect of a gun buyback on the local gun market; gun buybacks actually increase ownership of guns in an area because you're basically paying people to exchange their nonfunctional or inferior guns for better ones. Gun buybacks don't reduce the amount of guns; they actually make it more valuable to own a gun, so people get more guns.

I don't follow - how does a ban and buyback program increase the ownership of guns? The government becomes the owner of the sold firearms, not private owners, and new sales are banned. How could that result in anything other than reduced private ownership, which is the point?

How are you going to "catch" people owning guns without a door to door search? You're proposing a "war on guns" almost topologically identical to the "war on drugs."

Strawman. I propose no such thing. If a person carries a gun in public and it is reported, they can be arrested. If a person is served a search warrant and a gun is found, that's an additional charge that can be filed even if the warrant was for something else.

Again, you don;t need a police state to ban something. You dont need door-to-door searches unless you think we need to get rid of all guns right now, and I don't see that as a requirement. I see the requirement to be reducing gun ownership by private citizens. A ban would go a very long way, and could even achieve that goal in the very long term alone; a buy back program would accelerate the process, and other ideas might help as well, but I never suggested anything like what you're suggesting.

How well has the war on drugs worked in terms of getting rid of drugs? How have our civil liberties fared under the war on drugs? Haven't we, in fact, already almost arrived at "police state" as a result of criminalizing possession of drugs?

A ban doesn't necessarily have to mean jail time - it can simply be a fine and confiscation. You need an incentive to surrender firearms, but that need not be the threat incarceration, and neither need the ban be taken to the extremes of the so-called "war on drugs." Reduction is the goal, not full elimination.

And, you know...guns don't just grow like pot, and it's harder to make a homemade gun than it is to cook meth. And those you can make at home don't tend to be fully automatic weapons with boxes of ammunition.

You haven't really presented an argument, crash, other than strawmanning my positions.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2012 4:49 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2012 5:34 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(5)
Message 28 of 5179 (683960)
12-14-2012 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by crashfrog
12-14-2012 5:17 PM


Re: guns versus mentality
Which 20? The 20 that died in this attack on a school? Or the 20 who died today in car accidents?

How about the 20 who died yesterday? How about the 20 who will die tomorrow, and on the next day?

This is a compelling argument to focus our attention elsewhere, on ways to minimize death and injury from more likely sources that can be more easily curtailed.

But that's not an argument against gun control. It's a red herring. Even if our attention is better focused elsewhere...none of us are policy makers, we're just people on a debate board. Whether a kid is more likely to die from a gun or diabetes has no bearing on whether or not gun laws in the US could use some changes.

Besides...gun violence and gun control isn't limited to school shootings. School shootings simply provide an emotionally impactful reason to bring the topic to our attention.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2012 5:17 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2012 5:36 PM Rahvin has responded

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 31 of 5179 (683963)
12-14-2012 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by RAZD
12-14-2012 5:30 PM


Re: limit ammunition, make accounting for every bullet part of it
Something along this line might be the most viable solution. In Sweden IIRC each person is issued a gun and ammunition and have to account for any ammo used.

Make hunting rifle ammo available in single shot mode, with license to purchase, background checks etc. with ammo to be marked and accounted for before next purchase.

Pistols could be single shot mode and only one round at a time -- you don't need more for self protection.

Except that this would do nothing for shootings where a legally owned firearm is taken by an unauthorized individual for a rampage, like is the case in most school shootings. Accountability does nothing for murder-suicides, either. It's a good idea, but it would require a lot of bureaucracy for little reward.

And ammunition of some types can be made at home, much more easily than the firearms can.

And many "single-shot" firearms are modified autos or semi-autos, and a skilled individual can modify them back to their more military design.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by RAZD, posted 12-14-2012 5:30 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by RAZD, posted 12-15-2012 8:28 AM Rahvin has not yet responded

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(4)
Message 35 of 5179 (683968)
12-14-2012 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by crashfrog
12-14-2012 5:36 PM


Re: guns versus mentality
It's an argument against the need for gun control, I guess; it's an argument to focus our limited energies where they will do the most good and the least harm. We can't fix all problems. Better to focus on the low-hanging fruit, and work our way up. When the roads are safe, isn't that the time to solve the problem of incredibly rare school shootings?\

Again...this is a discussion thread. You're presenting an argument to not bother debating the issue, which is different from debating how we can improve firearms legislation.

If you think the topic is unimportant...well, feel free to not bother debating it. Feel free to start a thread on how to make the roads safer.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2012 5:36 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2012 6:53 PM Rahvin has responded

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(6)
Message 40 of 5179 (683980)
12-14-2012 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by AZPaul3
12-14-2012 6:33 PM


Can anyone anywhere show where fewer guns, fewer knives, fewer hammers and chainsaws and molotov cocktails is an effective answer to stopping crazy prople?

yes.

What's the per-capita gun death rate in Norway as compared to the US?

I'll do it for you.

Norway is 1.78 per 100,000 people.
The US is 9.

You're making a simple error - you're suggesting that gun control on the level of Norway's is intended to eliminate gun deaths.

It's not.

It's intended to reduce them.

Those numbers suggest that Norway is doing a better job at preventing gun-related deaths than the US is. A much better job.

Crazy people will always be out there. But we can take some actions to reduce the amount of harm they're capable of doing.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2012 6:33 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2012 9:05 PM Rahvin has responded

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(3)
Message 45 of 5179 (683985)
12-14-2012 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by crashfrog
12-14-2012 6:53 PM


Re: guns versus mentality
I'd love to have a debate about how we can improve firearms legislation. At issue, here, is the definition of "improve", where you contend that so long as even a single school shooting happens, our legislation needs to be "improved."

I never once contended any such thing.

In fact, I've repeatedly stated that my goal is the reduction of gun violence, not the elimination of school shootings.

Perhaps you should restrict yourself to debating my actual positions, rather than making up strawmen or arguing that we shouldn't worry ourselves about such a minor problem in the first place.

I disagree, because there's a point at which strict gun control causes deaths instead of preventing them. The way that it does that is two-fold; on one hand, focusing resources chasing diminishing returns means that we're not saving lives we could have in other areas; on the other, making it hard to use guns even for good reasons means that we're losing lives who could have been saved had they had easier access to guns.

Evidence?

From gun violence statistics, it would seem that these points are likely false. I've already posted a comparison of per-capita gun deaths from the US to Norway; I can provide more, if you like. The data is freely available, and it clearly shows that countries like Japan, the UK, Norway, Sweden, and so on all have significantly fewer deaths per capita due to gun violence than the US.

You have also contended repeatedly that a ban on firearms necessitates a "war on drugs" level of prohibition, which I have repeatedly deflated. Your continued insistence does not make it so - we manage to ban private ownership of hand grenades without a "war on explosives," we manage to ban lead paint without a "war on paint," and so on.

Again - you seem to have nothing to debate aside from strawmen, red herrings, and bald assertions.

Perhaps you should attempt to debate actual positions your opponents have actually stated, and back up your arguments with actual data as others have done.

Now, the calculus of preventing three schoolchildren from being shot at the cost of one additional person dying during a robbery (for instance, or one person shot needlessly by police executing a search for an illegal firearm) is a calculus I can live with. But at some point, you're increasing the number of deaths during other crimes in exchange for a diminishing amount of schoolchildren saved. That's the stopping point, in my view - where your next legislation costs more lives than it saves - but you don't seem prepared to admit that anyone might be killed by what you propose.

Provide evidence for this assertion.

Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2012 6:53 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by crashfrog, posted 12-15-2012 9:44 AM Rahvin has not yet responded

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(2)
Message 52 of 5179 (684002)
12-14-2012 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by AZPaul3
12-14-2012 9:05 PM


I err not.

You argued that, since a gun ban would not stop all gun violence, there's no reason to ban guns.

That's not and never has been my position. My position is that a ban would reduce gun violence, and that's the goal.

See. here's what you said:

You do know about Norway where some of the most strict gun laws have been implemented. You do remember Belgium where, again, very strict gun laws are in force. And certainly you all know about China where private gun possession is a capital offense.

Strict gun laws, even complete bans on guns, doesn't seem to have kept the crazies from raveging through grade schools

You referred to a few well-known anecdotes to demonstrate that gun violence still exists in countries with strict gun control. You claimed that the gun control "didn't stop them."

Nothing can stop them completely. No system short of a time-travelling oracle will be able to prevent all of them.

But the statistics, you know, real data as opposed to simple anecdotes, shows that countries with strict gun control have a FAR lower incidence of gun-related death than the US.

I presented that data to back my argument.

No one can show a definitive causal relationship.

Of course not - human behavior is too complex to be able to tell what the actual cause was in most cases of gun violence.

But while correlation is not causality, it's one fuck of a big hint.

And it's pretty hard to argue that fewer guns can do anything but reduce gun violence. It's hard to shoot a gun you don't have.

The point is that, as we have seen in this thread, we will make this tragedy an excuse to mount a soapbox and blame everyone and everything we oppose in society

I've been advocating a gun ban for years. I'm the last person who says "save the children!" I hate emotional appeals.

I simply note how many people die every year from gunshots, and I think to myself "Guns don't kill people, people kill people... but people with guns kill a lot more effectively than people without guns, and I'd much rather face a lunatic with a knife than a lunatic with a pistol."

EXCEPT why the poor kid went nuts on a killing spree. Could we, should we, have seen any outward signs of extreme emotional distress? Who was watching? Who should have been watching?

I completely agree that mental health care in the US is worse than abysmal. Instead of fixing the hellhole institutions, we just closed them and threw the sick people onto the street.

But not all gun violence is due to the mentally unstable. There have been several recent "stand your ground" incidents in the US where people were killed for no reason at all...because a perfectly sane person had a gun and felt a little threatened when no threat was present. Just as an example. The vast majority of gun-related killings do not occur in a classroom, and are not related to media-frenzy-causing crazy people.

You;re just arguing red herrings and straw men.

Guns are too fucking easy a target and will do nothing to even slow these tragedies, as Anders Breivik and Min Yingjun have already shown.

Yet those two were individual incidents, and when you look at the actual statistics, the frequency of gun deaths...your argument falls to pieces.

Again: nobody says bans will eliminate gun violence. Only that they'll reduce it.

It would appear, given that Norway has less than 1/4 of the gun-related deaths of the US, that their gun laws may have prevented more people from going Breivik by restricting their access to firearms.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by AZPaul3, posted 12-14-2012 9:05 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(2)
Message 289 of 5179 (684414)
12-17-2012 2:37 PM


I agree with crash and CS on assault weapons.

Banning assault weapons doesn't do any good. If I can;t get an Uzi, I can still get a handgun. Rapid-auto-fire is dangerous for police engagements, but in an incident like a school shooting, an Uzi would just expend its ammo faster.

If you ban assault weapons, history has shown that the regular sort of firearm still works perfectly well for making a large body count.

That's why I support banning ALL firearms. No hunting rifles. No handguns. No shotguns, no pistols, no revolvers, nothing. No ammunition, no guns.

Fewer firearms can only ever result in fewer deaths due to firearms, in our schools and in our streets. Some will still happen, we can't magically disappear all of the existing guns, and we'll have a black market rise up overnight based on the sale of guns and ammo...but the number of guns on the street will slowly decline, and gun violence will decline with them.

It's politically untenable. It would require a Constitutional amendment. Nevertheless, I still think it's the best option by far to reduce gun violence. Whenever I look to the UK or Norway or Sweden or, really, almost anywhere in Europe, I know that we can do better than we are today.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 2:52 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 333 of 5179 (684494)
12-17-2012 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:01 PM


He executed his planned suicide at the first sign of resistance. The loaded Glock pointed at him was that resistance. Textbook case of lives saved by concealed carry.

And what would have happened if the assailant had not had a gun available in the first place?


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:01 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by jar, posted 12-17-2012 5:09 PM Rahvin has not yet responded
 Message 337 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 5:11 PM Rahvin has responded

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 338 of 5179 (684500)
12-17-2012 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by New Cat's Eye
12-17-2012 5:11 PM


Maybe he'd have used a homemade bomb.

Certainly a possibility. If he knew how. If he was able to get the materials in large enough quantities.

But let's test the prediction. In nations where guns are less available, does the number of bomb-based attacks increase after firearms legislation is passed?

You've speculated, but the real world already has examples. What do those examples show us?


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 5:11 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 5:20 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 342 of 5179 (684504)
12-17-2012 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:10 PM


Re: rate of violent crime in the world?
According to a 2012 study, the murder rate in the US is still significantly higher than in the UK.

The murder rate in the US is 4.2 per 100,000 individuals.
In the UK, it's 1.2.

But then, your argument seems to be that an alleged increase in petty theft justifies allowing "self-defense" weapons that demonstrably increase the murder rate. That strikes me as rather odd, considering that I'd much rather lose my TV (and have insurance replace it) than lose my life or the lives of my loved ones.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:10 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:30 PM Rahvin has responded

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 347 of 5179 (684510)
12-17-2012 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:30 PM


Re: rate of violent crime in the world?
See, this is the insanity I can't wrap my head around. A guy breaks into your home while you're there and you think that's a petty crime? I don't follow that at all.

Compare theft to murder, and perhaps you'll see the difference.

But crash, you've focused on hyperbole rather than the argument.

The murder rate in the UK is almost ONE FOURTH that of the US!

I'd trade double the non-murder crime rate to cut the murder rate to 1/4 of its current value any day of the goddamned week.

Why wouldn't you? You'd rather have more murders and less stuff stolen? Really? Apparently stuff means more to you than human life.

Edited by Rahvin, : Whoops, switched the UK and US in a sentence...


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:30 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 7:11 PM Rahvin has responded

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