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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4479 of 5179 (773498)
12-02-2015 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 4478 by Tanypteryx
12-02-2015 5:50 PM


Re: Another one
The answer is so obvious... Clearly we have to uninvent the gun.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4478 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-02-2015 5:50 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4481 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-02-2015 9:41 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 4486 by dwise1, posted 12-05-2015 4:13 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4489 of 5179 (773659)
12-06-2015 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 4486 by dwise1
12-05-2015 4:13 AM


Re: Another one
But with 3-D printing, the genie has clearly left the bottle.
I was being facetious because nothing is going to undo this and it's about as functionally useless as saying we should just uninvent the gun. There's no way you could disarm the bulk of America at this point without massive bloodshed and civil unrest. So some more common sense legislation is necessary.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4486 by dwise1, posted 12-05-2015 4:13 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4490 by AZPaul3, posted 12-06-2015 1:52 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4491 of 5179 (773662)
12-06-2015 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 4490 by AZPaul3
12-06-2015 1:52 AM


Re: Another one
We can dream of "common sense" gun control but right now we are in the midst of an unending nightmare.
If you had your way, how would you tackle the issue?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4490 by AZPaul3, posted 12-06-2015 1:52 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4492 by AZPaul3, posted 12-06-2015 3:50 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4493 of 5179 (773665)
12-06-2015 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 4492 by AZPaul3
12-06-2015 3:50 AM


Re: Another one
It's a dangerous proposition for any politician to undertake, because the people within the military are almost entirely composed of people who support to the 2nd Amendment. A president could literally be ousted by insurrection and uprising if they didn't play it cool. Moreover, the culture is simply too engrained and too armed at this point to capitulate.
So instead it would be advisable to introduce legislation that restricts or at least clearly defines what constitutes legal arms.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4492 by AZPaul3, posted 12-06-2015 3:50 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4494 by AZPaul3, posted 12-06-2015 7:55 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4497 of 5179 (775095)
12-28-2015 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 4496 by Percy
12-27-2015 9:59 AM


Re: Gun Control in Missouri
Homicide Rate in the US: The U.S. homicide rate declined by nearly half (49%), from 9.3 homicides per 100,000 U.S. residents in 1992 to 4.7 in 2011, falling to the lowest level since 1963.
Homicide by Gun Rate in the US: The rate of homicides involving a firearm decreased by 49% from 1992 to 2011, while the percentage of homicide victims killed by a firearm (67%) remained stable.
Source: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hus11.pdf
As for the numbers, self-defense by gun is 80 times higher than that of homicide, suicide, and accidental shooting combined. Don't hear about that in the media though, because it's not sensational enough.
Source: Guns in the United States Firearms, gun law and gun control
Additionally, there are 130,000 knife attacks in the UK alone, which goes to show that in the absence of guns, other means are not only available but also utilized. This goes to show, once again, that it's not about the tool being used but the intent of the person utilizing it.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4496 by Percy, posted 12-27-2015 9:59 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4498 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 6:57 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 4501 by Blue Jay, posted 12-28-2015 2:46 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 4502 by Percy, posted 12-28-2015 4:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 4505 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-29-2015 1:18 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 4506 by vimesey, posted 12-29-2015 1:51 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4499 of 5179 (775098)
12-28-2015 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 4498 by Tangle
12-28-2015 6:57 AM


Re: Gun Control in Missouri
All crime rates with the exception of cybercrime - have fallen all round the developed world by 50% or more since the mid 90s. There are longwinded reasons for this. You need to compare relative rates not cherrypicked crime rates.
They aren't cherrypicked, they are relevant to the place with the highest collection of arms in the world. And still the rate of both crime and gun crime are half of what it was and continues to fall. So if guns are truly the problem then we should be seeing an increase not a decline.
In the UK there were 537 murders or 9 per million population. Care to tell us the US rates?
You're missing the point entirely, but the murder rate is 4.5, the lowest since the 60's. That's about 10,000 out of a population of 318 million, which is approximately 5 times higher than the UK at 65 million or so. So, you're comparing apples to oranges.
My point in using the UK is to demonstrate that whether there is access to guns or not, the heart of the issue is that violence still occurs regardless. And the real metric is how sane or insane your society is.
And America is a rather violent society. That's the issue.
If guns themselves are the reason for the violence, then countries like Switzerland should be off the charts and countries like Russia or Mexico should be low. But it's actually the opposite. That means there are other factors at play and that guns and gun laws cannot account for the disparity.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4498 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 6:57 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4500 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 7:57 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 4533 of 5179 (775367)
01-01-2016 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 4522 by Percy
12-30-2015 2:01 PM


Re: Gun Control in Missouri
What actually happened is that the urban death rate went up dramatically while the rural rate must have remained unchanged (the journal paper doesn't comment on rural rates: Effects of the repeal of Missouri's handgun purchaser licensing law on homicides), but both the urban and rural suicide rates increased substantially.
That's a truly awful argument in favor of strict gun control, as if there aren't millions of ways a person determined to die can kill themselves. Would you outlaw tall buildings and bridges for jumpers? Rope and sheets for hangings? Razor blades? Eradicate all medication in the off chance someone might them to commit suicide?
There are other legitimate focuses for gun control than suicide, since suicide is so tenuous and unpredictable by its very nature. Homicide and aggravated assault would obviously make better arguments in favor of tighter gun control.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4522 by Percy, posted 12-30-2015 2:01 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4536 by Tangle, posted 01-01-2016 5:32 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 4534 of 5179 (775368)
01-01-2016 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 4527 by Percy
12-30-2015 5:37 PM


Re: Suicides
Making guns less available would save a great many lives in the US. Checking out a little Wikipedia information about suicides I see that only around 15% of people with a failed suicide attempt eventually do commit suicide, and of course most of those failed attempts could not have used guns since the success rate of suicide by gun is the highest of all methods. This means more than 85% of those attempting suicide who would have used a gun were one available would be permanently saved.
That's really nave to think that if guns weren't available that magically suicidal people would lose interest in killing themselves. They would simply find another way, just as people who don't have access to guns figure out other ways to kill people.
This is the fundamental problem with gun control advocates; they think changing things externally will fix what is ultimately an internal problem. Maybe we should be figuring out why people want to kill either themselves or others rather than trying to create some falsely sanitized world free from bad things.
I'm certainly not suggesting that the world is better with guns, because it's not. But we have to deal with reality because short of uninventing the gun, they are here to stay, so we might as well have a common sense approach. And since bad people will do bad things with or without guns, there might as well be a strong deterrent.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4527 by Percy, posted 12-30-2015 5:37 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4549 by Percy, posted 01-01-2016 8:53 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4535 of 5179 (775369)
01-01-2016 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 4530 by Dr Adequate
12-31-2015 2:52 PM


Re: Oh Look, More Responsible Gun Owners
How do you live in a house containing three people, hear someone moving about the house, and not consider the possibility that it might be the other person who lives in the fucking house?
I'm sure an isolated incident involving an idiot behind the wheel of a car wouldn't compel you to do away with cars altogether in response.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4530 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-31-2015 2:52 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4554 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-01-2016 9:28 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4537 of 5179 (775382)
01-01-2016 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 4536 by Tangle
01-01-2016 5:32 AM


Re: Gun Control in Missouri
It's been empirically shown that the more convenient suicide methods are, the more deaths there are.
The changeover from poisonous town gas to natural gas lowered suicide rates because 'putting your head in the oven' no longer worked.
Reducing the number of paracetomol individuals can buy and even putting them in bubble packs reduced suicide attempts using them.
And as I stated, in the absence of guns suicidal people will still commit suicide. So what's your point?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4536 by Tangle, posted 01-01-2016 5:32 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4538 by Straggler, posted 01-01-2016 6:23 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 4539 by Tangle, posted 01-01-2016 6:41 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 4574 by ringo, posted 01-02-2016 11:03 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4540 of 5179 (775386)
01-01-2016 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 4538 by Straggler
01-01-2016 6:23 AM


Re: Gun Control in Missouri
The point is that everywhere has people that want to kill themselves and others at times. We can all lose the plot or suffer some kind of suicidal impulse. These mental failings are not unique to Americans. But you guys in the US seem particularly intent on enabling people to act out these impulses with your baffling support for widespread gun availability.
That is literally the worst and weakest argument for gun control possibly ever. We should deny ownership of guns on the off-chance that someone might kill themselves with it. We should likewise ban buildings over two-stories and ban access to bridges and ban all pills and ban razor blades and ban knives and we should ban vehicles and so on...
Hell, the Armed Forces of the United Kingdom should relinquish their arms because suicidal troops coming back from Afghanistan might kill themselves with their issued arms. OR you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.
The bottom line is that people intent on killing themselves will find a way. People intent on harming others will also find a way.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4538 by Straggler, posted 01-01-2016 6:23 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4545 by Straggler, posted 01-01-2016 8:14 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 4550 by Percy, posted 01-01-2016 9:06 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4541 of 5179 (775387)
01-01-2016 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 4539 by Tangle
01-01-2016 6:41 AM


Re: Gun Control in Missouri
The point is that you are wrong.
Haha, I'm wrong, huh?
Answer this simple question: Do people kill themselves without the use of guns? Yes or no.
Suicides are reduced by making the method inconvenient. It is not always the case that someone with suicidal thoughts will kill themselves anyway. Some will find alternatives but for many the fact that there is no convenient method is enough to stop them for long enough to have second thoughts.
Simply enclosing headache pills in individual bubble wraps was enough to prevent a significant number of suicides. The fact that people had to unwrap fifty of so individual pills reduced suicide rates.
LOL, right, so inconveniencing suicidals is the solution for suicide prevention! Holy fuck! C'mon, that's an absurd argument to be making for a reason to unilaterally ban guns.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4539 by Tangle, posted 01-01-2016 6:41 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4542 by Tangle, posted 01-01-2016 7:21 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4543 of 5179 (775389)
01-01-2016 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 4539 by Tangle
01-01-2016 6:41 AM


Re: Gun Control in Missouri
I thought of one other thing, even at the risk of this derailing in to a debate on suicide; and that is that the statistics show that men prefer the gun because of its higher percentage of lethality. They damn sure don't want to survive and become an invalid, so a gun is a safer method than slitting one's wrist. Plus it is a quicker death. However, women rarely use guns comparatively, and that's because they are more worried about what their corpse will look like when they are dead. They are more content with going to sleep and never waking up again.
The point is that, like everything else, its variable. Not that it's a good reason for a unilateral ban on firearms because, lets be honest, the percentage of people that purchase handguns with the intent of killing themselves is astronomically low when juxtaposed by people who buy guns for recreation and defense.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4539 by Tangle, posted 01-01-2016 6:41 AM Tangle has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4544 of 5179 (775390)
01-01-2016 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 4542 by Tangle
01-01-2016 7:21 AM


Re: Gun Control in Missouri
Yes.
Then I cannot be wrong for which you quoted me.
Now listen very carefully. When people do not have easy access to methods of suicide, fewer people kill themselves.
Given that piece of factual information - remember, I said it has been empirically proven to be the case and I gave you two examples - do you think that having a loaded gun in your bedroom would increase, decrease or be neutral to the probability of someone with suicidal tendancies killing themselves?
What I think is that it is completely and entirely irrelevant since people find other means. Had you said that suicidal people tend to choose the more lethal method, the gun being a more effective method, I would have agreed. But even that is a specious reason for a unilateral ban.
You could make a better argument that car manufacturers should not allow any vehicles to go above 60mph, since high speeds statistically result in more deaths than slower speeds.
Yes, as I said, it's the reason why it's hard to buy loose paracetamol (Tylenol) in the UK.
I know, so you've said, the inconvenience of popping blister packs has saved untold millions!
It's only one of the many good arguments. Others would be to reduce America's hideous murder rate and accidental gun injuries and deaths.
No, the latter would actually be a good argument in defense of stricter gun control. That argument at least has a basis measured in reality. The suicide argument is literally the worst argument that I've ever heard for an anti-gun position... And that's saying a lot.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4542 by Tangle, posted 01-01-2016 7:21 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4546 by Tangle, posted 01-01-2016 8:23 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 4548 by Straggler, posted 01-01-2016 8:29 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 4551 by Percy, posted 01-01-2016 9:38 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 4555 of 5179 (775455)
01-02-2016 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 4548 by Straggler
01-01-2016 8:29 AM


Re: Gun Control in Missouri
You may think that but Tangle's point is that the statistics prove you completely wrong.
Well, first of all you really cannot control for something like that since a high number of people who were suicidal, but didn't go through with it to completion, would not report it.
Out of 41,149 total suicides in the U.S., 21,175 were committed by the use of a gun -- about half, which perfectly represents what I've stated -- that people find other methods or prefer other methods.
Source: FastStats - Suicide and Self-Inflicted Injury
Regardless, I still don't see how that is a good reason for banning guns anymore than we should be banning razor blades or ropes or whatever other tool people might use to kill themselves.
But I digress, as we're going around in circles.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4548 by Straggler, posted 01-01-2016 8:29 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4564 by Straggler, posted 01-02-2016 5:35 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

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