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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
AZPaul3
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Joined: 11-06-2006
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(3)
Message 39 of 5179 (683979)
12-14-2012 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Rahvin
12-14-2012 3:46 PM


If the guns had never been legal in the first place, the parent wouldn't have the guns to steal. The gun shows wouldn't have the guns to sell. Only criminals would own guns...but there would be fewer guns, and school shootings aren't generally perpetrated by the same people who participate in gang violence or other centers of illegal firearm possession.

After reading this thread I'm only using Rahvin's post as my launch pad. I hope he doesn't mind.

So guns are the problem? Stricter gun laws the answer?

You do know about Norway where some of the most strict gun laws have been implemented. You do remember Belgium where, again, very strict gun laws are in force. And certainly you all know about China where private gun possession is a capital offense.

Strict gun laws, even complete bans on guns, doesn't seem to have kept the crazies from raveging through grade schools.

Can anyone anywhere show where fewer guns, fewer knives, fewer hammers and chainsaws and molotov cocktails is an effective answer to stopping crazy people?

So then what is it in the USA that causes so many people to instantly blame the NRA for these acts?

I know. Emotions run deep and political emotions run deerper than most. So in the end we will all fight each other spending more time and more money on solutions for/against our pet symptoms instead of addressing the disease.

And, no, I have no idea how we go about finding and stopping crazy people before they act. And neither do you.

Edited by AZPaul3, : spelin


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4505
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 51 of 5179 (684000)
12-14-2012 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Rahvin
12-14-2012 6:39 PM


You're making a simple error - you're suggesting that gun control on the level of Norway's is intended to eliminate gun deaths.

It's not.

It's intended to reduce them.

I err not. No one can show a definitive causal relationship.

Are there other factors of social norms, the constitution of the society, homogeneous population, disparities in economic spread, that could account for the differences in these rates?

But this is not the point.

The point is that, as we have seen in this thread, we will make this tragedy an excuse to mount a soapbox and blame everyone and everything we oppose in society, EXCEPT why the poor kid went nuts on a killing spree. Could we, should we, have seen any outward signs of extreme emotional distress? Who was watching? Who should have been watching?

Guns are too fucking easy a target and will do nothing to even slow these tragedies, as Anders Breivik and Min Yingjun have already shown.

We waste our breath on guns/no guns while the mental health system remains in tatters.

I guess that's my soapbox.

ABE: Just in case anyone is interested, I do not like guns. I will not allow one in my home. I have also found over the last x decades that the kinds of personalities that usually enjoy owning, caressing, shooting, licking their guns are not usually compatible with mine.

Edited by AZPaul3, : added edit

Edited by AZPaul3, : the usual suspects


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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4505
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 711 of 5179 (685302)
12-21-2012 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 709 by RAZD
12-21-2012 3:12 PM


And when one of those armed guards goes on a rampage ...

... then it wouldn't matter if he used a gun or an axe.


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AZPaul3
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From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 712 of 5179 (685303)
12-21-2012 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 710 by Tangle
12-21-2012 3:15 PM


And when one of those armed guards shoots a child when he was reaching for a hidden banana....

... then we will know either the training or the psych eval were deficient.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4505
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 713 of 5179 (685304)
12-21-2012 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 709 by RAZD
12-21-2012 3:12 PM


And when one of those armed guards goes on a rampage ...



And when one of those armed guards shoots a child when he was reaching for a hidden banana....

... then we will know it was a god awful idea to begin with.


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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4505
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Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 753 of 5179 (685448)
12-22-2012 9:24 PM


The organization has lost touch with the realities of our society. It is time for this group to be sidelined then ignored.


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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4505
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Joined: 11-06-2006
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Message 1258 of 5179 (687188)
01-08-2013 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1256 by New Cat's Eye
01-08-2013 12:00 PM


Re: Aurora...again
So should we have police everywhere? Should every public venue, no matter the size, be patrolled by the police?

Nope.

Isn't this pretty much the action called for by the NRA after Sandy Hook?


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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4505
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 1278 of 5179 (687239)
01-08-2013 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1259 by Rahvin
01-08-2013 12:31 PM


Re: Aurora...again
They want civilians to be armed. They want quarter-trained civilians with guns in enclosed spaces with a bunch of children in the case of schools and shopping malls.

Oh, the "B" team. The wannabe fantacy cops who aren't afraid to "stand their ground" when confronted by that black guy in the hoody, armed all the way up his boody, with that hairy eyeball look, staring at that Algebra book, with such malice in his heart.

You can just feel the comfortable warmth of knowing that your loved ones are protected by the George Zimmermans and Michael Jocks we have been graced with in this most civilized of nations.

If I go out and buy me a really big gun can I go patrol the high schools and guard all the pretty girls too?


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4505
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 1281 of 5179 (687258)
01-08-2013 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1280 by hooah212002
01-08-2013 7:44 PM


Or the third option ...

Sure. That's a viable option.

One more for our consideration.

Hows 'bout we, as a sane enlightened society, repeal the fuckin 2nd Amendment and get rid of all the fuckin guns.

I know, I know, just a pleasant dream. But we all have our wishful fantasies, don't we?

Imagine all the people living life in peace ...

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4505
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 1283 of 5179 (687262)
01-08-2013 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1282 by Dr Adequate
01-08-2013 10:21 PM


But all those rights are over 200 years old. They've been out on the table exposed to patriots, being sneezed on, poked at, rubbed raw, eroded. You think he still wants 'em?

Ok, how's this. One factory for wooden stakes and a federal subsidy for garlic farms ...

Wait. Wrong ghoul.

What does zombies? Tetracycline?


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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4505
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 1497 of 5179 (688812)
01-25-2013 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1495 by RAZD
01-25-2013 4:19 PM


Re: 52 states?????????
Hmm ... I do count 52. How odd.

Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
California
Colorado
Confusion
Connecticut
Delaware
Dumbdumb
Florida
Georgia
Hawaii
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma
Oregon
Pennsylvania
Rhode Island
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Vermont
Virginia
Washington
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4505
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 1499 of 5179 (688817)
01-25-2013 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1498 by Tanypteryx
01-25-2013 5:16 PM


Re: 52 states?????????
Red States.
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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4505
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


(3)
Message 1710 of 5179 (690343)
02-12-2013 12:37 AM


For every case cited by one side the other side can cite two. For every emotionally compelling argument from this side there is another from that. Other than an exercise in emotional ranting, which has its attractions, no positions are being changed let alone the formation of consensus or compromise.

In microcosm this quite accurately mirrors the rantfest taking place today across the nation. With the same result: none.

There is a real rising shout for "something" to be done and we all know that the powers involved are as split as the society. But they are "political" and will find a way to feed the frenzied hoards quelling the passions.

What I predict will result is some band-aid legislation that appears to have substance but will have few, if any, teeth. Each side will wail inconsolably that such did not go quite far enough or almost went too far.

The passions will subside. The public's attention will drift. The status quo will return. Until, as there must be, the next mass tragedy unfolds.

Meanwhile, in the streets out of the national spotlight, the innocent will bleed and the killing will continue.


AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4505
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 1825 of 5179 (691157)
02-20-2013 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1823 by ICANT
02-20-2013 9:02 PM


Re: Self-defence
... nowhere in it did I see the authority given to interpret the Constitution.
I did get the idea they were supposed to make sure the laws passed by the Congress was in line with what was written in the Constitution.

And how does the court keep the congress in line with the constitution if the court does not interpret the letter, spirit and intent of the document? The document may not say "thou shalt interpret" in so many words but the wording and intent of Article III leaves no doubt where this power was to reside.

Why can't I disagree with the Court?

You are free to disagree with the court's rulings all you want.

But the law, which is what the court's rulings are, does not care if you agree or disagree. No one is above the law. If you violate the law there will be consequences.

But just because some Judge thought something was right does not make it right.

These are human institutions within a human society. Nothing will be perfect in every case. Someone, somewhere, has to be the final arbiter in fact and in law. There must be a final resolution to all adversarial issues. In the USA the constitution gives that right solely and exclusively to the Supreme Court. It may not be a perfect solution, but it sure seems a whole lot better than we have seen in a whole bunch of other systems.

Edited by AZPaul3, : stuff


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4505
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 1836 of 5179 (691180)
02-21-2013 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1833 by Faith
02-21-2013 5:56 AM


Re: Self-defence
I'm for tarring and feathering people who morally equate the aggressive murderous violence of our enemies with our right to self defense.

I hope, Faith, that you can recognize GDR's comments as political speech, tongue-in-cheek though they were. He was not saying that them there furriners had 2nd Amendment rights under our constitution. Though on a global scale, as independent nations, he's not really wrong. Scary.

[aside]

You do know GDR was being facetious to make a point, yes?

[/aside]

Political speech is exactly what the 1st Amendment is designed to protect. You disagree with what he said and you have the right to disagree and to say so. But he does have the right to say it without being tarred and feathered (what happened to being run out of town on a rail? That is supposed to be part of the standard practice in a tarring and feathering.)

The limits on free speech go more toward incitement to do harm.

As far as my "cheer," it was a reaction to your "jeer." I don't do jeers and where I think appropriate I try to counterbalance those that do.

Anyway, please recognize GDR was making a ridiculous statement as a way of making his larger point. And, please don't tar and feather either of us for exercising the very right you used to make this objection.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 1837 by Faith, posted 02-21-2013 7:08 AM AZPaul3 has responded
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