Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 50 (9179 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,217 Year: 5,474/9,624 Month: 499/323 Week: 139/204 Day: 9/4 Hour: 0/0


EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

Summations Only

Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 7 of 5179 (683938)
12-14-2012 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Rahvin
12-14-2012 3:46 PM


guns versus mentality
Rahvin,
No matter how many tragedies happen in america, there will continue to be too many people fighting for the right to own guns.
I believe this shows that too many americans simply don't mind living in a violent, hateful society. (Perhaps the remainder actually like it.)
Can you elsewise explain this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Rahvin, posted 12-14-2012 3:46 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 12-14-2012 4:47 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 14 by Rahvin, posted 12-14-2012 5:00 PM dronestar has replied

dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 9 of 5179 (683940)
12-14-2012 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
12-14-2012 4:47 PM


Re: guns versus mentality
Does this recent tragedy move you to do something to prevent the next tragedy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 12-14-2012 4:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2012 4:52 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 15 by jar, posted 12-14-2012 5:00 PM dronestar has not replied

dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 16 of 5179 (683948)
12-14-2012 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by crashfrog
12-14-2012 4:52 PM


Re: guns versus mentality
Crash writes:
I think we'd all love to do something to prevent the next tragedy. But you have to prove that what you want to do is something that would prevent the next tragedy without itself being a tragedy.
As i wrote before, I think it would FIRST require a society-wide mental adjustment. Jar's very quick reply in favor of guns suggests it would be a losing battle.
Perhaps I can post more photos of dead children from gunshots, but that didn't seem to sway too many people on the forum before.
This is probably an 'unswayable' solution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2012 4:52 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 12-14-2012 5:05 PM dronestar has replied

dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 20 of 5179 (683952)
12-14-2012 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Rahvin
12-14-2012 5:00 PM


Re: guns versus mentality
Rahvin writes:
I think the "violent, hateful society" bit is essentially hyperbole.
The hateful part might be hyperbole, but the violent part? Compared to other countries, you would argue that america is NOT a violent society?
Rahvin writes:
I don't think most people are hateful, I think they're apathetic.
Yes, that's what I hoped my first post communicated. (However, I firmly believe this apathy is an uniquely american trait.) So what can be done with an apathetic society?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Rahvin, posted 12-14-2012 5:00 PM Rahvin has not replied

dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 21 of 5179 (683953)
12-14-2012 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
12-14-2012 5:05 PM


Re: guns versus mentality
Jar writes:
jar's reply was not in favor of guns but rather a recognition of reality.
Sadly, it must be a wanted reality or else it would change.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 12-14-2012 5:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 12-14-2012 5:15 PM dronestar has not replied

dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 22 of 5179 (683954)
12-14-2012 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by crashfrog
12-14-2012 5:07 PM


Re: guns versus mentality
Crash writes:
And they're both right. That's the problem.
No, the problem is 20 dead children.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2012 5:07 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by crashfrog, posted 12-14-2012 5:17 PM dronestar has not replied

dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 25 of 5179 (683957)
12-14-2012 5:16 PM


Have a good weekend gentlemen. I'm off to do some Xmas shopping and spread good cheer, and peace on earth.
Or something like that.

dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 318 of 5179 (684453)
12-17-2012 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 2:52 PM


rate of violent crime in the world?
Crash writes:
the UK, Norway, and Sweden - which, like almost anywhere in Europe, have a higher rate of crime (particularly violent crime) than the United States - . . .
"... a higher rate of crime . . . than the United States"?
"...(particularly violent crime)..."?
"N o r w a y"!?
Evidence please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 2:52 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:10 PM dronestar has replied

dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 394 of 5179 (684630)
12-18-2012 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:10 PM


Re: rate of violent crime in the world?
Crash writes:
. . . the UK, Norway, and Sweden - which, like almost anywhere in Europe, have a higher rate of crime (particularly violent crime) than the United States - . . .
Drone writes:
"... a higher rate of crime . . . than the United States"?
"...(particularly violent crime)..."?
"N o r w a y"!?
Crash writes:
Yeah, Dronester. Believe it or not, I know things you don't know. In fact, a lot of people do.
Chuckle.
Crash, if you knew more than me than you would have simply showed me evidence that NORWAY has a HIGHER VIOLENT CRIME RATE than the USA.
Do you wanna show your sheer ignorance a second time? Norwegian evidence please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:10 PM crashfrog has not replied

dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 408 of 5179 (684647)
12-18-2012 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Theodoric
12-18-2012 10:29 AM


Re: Bump for Crash
Theo writes:
Ok it was just some of your shit you fling to see if it sticks. Nice to know.
ditto, regarding Norwegian violent crime rates.
(On an entirely different topic, this isn't addressed to any person in particular, maybe it's time we all research how to communicate with people who have Asperger syndrome. We watched in on the big screen "The Social Network", the shooter in connecticut may have had it, and who knows, perhaps some forum members have it too)
Edited by dronester, : Asspergers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Theodoric, posted 12-18-2012 10:29 AM Theodoric has not replied

dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


(3)
Message 562 of 5179 (684960)
12-19-2012 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 561 by Rahvin
12-19-2012 2:22 PM


Re: Solution to Problem
Rahvin writes:
but a cop (or rent-a-cop) or two armed in every school sounds like a decent way to limit the carnage of school shootings.
I don't know Rahvin. You said yourself that school shootings are extremely rare. For the price of a cop or two in each school, we could make significant educational advances by hiring an equal amount of teachers. Perhaps the added education would offset more shootings?
So far, the one idea I liked in this forum is adding the legal obligation of keeping guns in a locked safe. If the guns used in the massacres are mostly illegally obtained from authorized gun owners, as was the connecticut shooter, then they need to be kept out of the reach of the mentally ill at all costs.
Lastly, the one thing we really haven't discussed in this thread is mental health. What can be done? It has been said america needs to do better with helping/financing mentally ill patients. How about closing a few dozen military bases overseas and using the money for them? Can psychologists label gun ownership as a mental disorder that is harmful to society? It sometimes alarmed me the way some people can go on and on about specific guns and their technical specs. Yikes. What's up with that? I've read erotic stories from Hustler magazine with less passion.
Edited by dronester, : sloppy, "illegally obtained from authorized gun owners"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 561 by Rahvin, posted 12-19-2012 2:22 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 563 by Rahvin, posted 12-19-2012 4:26 PM dronestar has replied

dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


(2)
Message 566 of 5179 (684967)
12-19-2012 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 563 by Rahvin
12-19-2012 4:26 PM


Re: Solution to Problem
Rahvin,
This last shooting has, paradoxically, left me numb and angry. I am hoping that I can make some sense of all of this. I would find comfort in reason, IF there is any here.
Something in my core says education would help. But I couldn't quantify that now. That is the reason for me exploring more teachers or maybe counselors in school versus just more security. Also, my disdain for more public displays of guns in the form of police/security prompts this. I think the display may be seen as a glorification of weapons by some . . . I have recently been lucky enough to be selected as a grand juror. The court building is sometimes protected by security in full weapon/swat gear. I can't believe this is the society we are building for ourselves.
Rahvin writes:
Examples in this thread have been posted aplenty of the weaknesses in firearms restrictions.
I know. It seems we are a mentally sick society for wanting this status quo. I am ignorant of gun permits, so I ask, is there something that triggers a flag if a mentally ill person has a history of medication for mental issues? Is there a database of all poeple who take medications for mental illness that is checked when a permit is applied? Should there be? Can there be? I know it won't prevent all gun deaths, but surely it can prevent some? I don't know why even members of the NRA would fight this, don't they have friends and family they care about?
Rahvin writes:
There is no proactive approach [to mental health care]. "Institutions" are short term - long term mental health issues typically result in disability or prison.
Agreed. Again, I am only considering those with a history of mental illness. I am familiar with a specific case of an insurance company not wanting to spend the ongoing money on a mentally ill person. So after one month of treatment, the person is declared healthy by the bean counters, the person is released from supervision, and the downward cycle begins again. This is crazy.
Rahvin writes:
gun violence, even school-located gun violence, is not solely an act perpetrated by the mentally ill in the clinical sense.
I'd prefer solutions that address the whole of gun violence, not simply the subsets of gun violence at schools or gun violence perpetrated by the mentally ill.
Agree. But, there may not be one practical solution solution to this whole madness. I concede, my suggestion would only deal with the mentally ill. Maybe not even a significant percentage in this gun violence problem.
Rahvin writes:
I'm disdainful of private ownership of firearms myself, dronester, but trying to say that your opposition is "insane," even barely-subtly, is just an ad hominem attack and does nothing to suggest what should be done about gun violence, mental illness, or anything else.
I think the problem is that the "opposition" doesn't seem to think there is a problem. It would be long term, but if the idea that gun ownership is at odds with the rest of the civilized world, maybe we can slowly reclaim sanity?
Sorry, my words in this thread are more questions than debate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by Rahvin, posted 12-19-2012 4:26 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 569 by Rahvin, posted 12-19-2012 5:42 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 578 by Panda, posted 12-19-2012 8:55 PM dronestar has not replied
 Message 1588 by dronestar, posted 02-04-2013 4:33 PM dronestar has not replied

dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 601 of 5179 (685050)
12-20-2012 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 569 by Rahvin
12-19-2012 5:42 PM


Re: Solution to Problem
Rahvin writes:
Comprehension is, in cases like this, hollow. Even when it helps us determine future preventive policies.
I don't know Rahvin. It would greatly help me if I knew some information from this last shooting would prevent the next dozen massacres.
Rahvin writes:
In this case you're using the term "education" as a placeholder.
Perhaps. But this is a topic my girlfriend and I talk about ALLLL the time, so I am using it as more than just a buzzword. I would like to see this topic as a different thread some time (it would quickly go off-topic here), but briefly: To make a better society, what school lessons should be added to our schools? I would like to see: 1. Conflict resolution skills taught. EVERY year. 2. Foreign culture studies. Every year. When we understand, we fear less. I am going to India in february. I wish I could take every american with me. Rahvin, I think you would be an interesting co-traveler, especially to a non-westernized nation. 3. Critical thinking skills. Every year. 4. Creative problem solving. Every year. 5. ??? Perhaps others already have their own list in their heads.
Rahvin writes:
This would violate HIPAA.
Yep, I am quite familiar with HIPAA. However, when the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, I wonder if there is at least a compromise? I understand both sides, but don't have a solution.
Rahvin writes:
Not all mental illness is the same...and most mentally ill people are not violent. Even the suicidally depressed are a minority among the depressed. There's a LOT more to mental illness than simply labeling them all "crazy" and restricting their rights specifically for a medical diagnosis. A paranoid schizophrenic can appear perfectly normal when on medication, and even when off of it, he usually won't hurt anyone.
Yep, my girlfriend, a therapist, informs me. However, these last two shooters, the 'joker' and this connecticut shooter make me wonder if there is ANYthing more than can be done to determine risks from certain people. I previously mentioned that the insurance companies should not use bean counting as a method of evaluation. Will this get better or worse under Obamacare?
Rahvin writes:
One could argue that the mentally ill individual is not crazy, being merely afflicted with a mental illness, while the system is absolutely crazy, being utterly ineffective at achieving its supposed goal of promoting mental health.
YES.
Rahvin writes:
We're rather insane regarding the relative threat of terrorism vs cigarette smoke or heart disease, too.
Americans (sometimes me too) are rather insane about too many erroneously perceived threats. But the corporate media and government willfully stirs that pot for intended results. Therefore, education is our only chance of gaining sanity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by Rahvin, posted 12-19-2012 5:42 PM Rahvin has not replied

dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 604 of 5179 (685054)
12-20-2012 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 602 by kofh2u
12-20-2012 10:12 AM


Re: more information
kofh2u writes:
The Democrat solution for the Gun killings is to do away with the Guns.
The Democrat solution for the Drug problem is to do away with the Drug Laws.
The Democrat solution for the teenage pregnancies is to do away with the babies.
The Democrat solution for the Economic recession is to place a Tax on successful business.
The Democratic solution for Unemployment is to extend the Unemployment Checks.
The Democrat solution for bank insolvency is to do away with the bankruptcy because they are too big to fail.
The Democrat solution for keeping Government Bond rates low is to buy their own bonds.
The Democrat solution for War is to do away with the military deterrent.
The Democrat solution for poverty is to give them other people’s money.
The Democrat solution for Conservative Laws is to assign Liberal judges.
The Democrat solution for fat kids is to investigate Fast Food restaurants.
The Democrat solution for the school bully is to arrest teachers for grabbing them.
Wow.
To repeat, education is our only chance of gaining sanity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by kofh2u, posted 12-20-2012 10:12 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by kofh2u, posted 12-20-2012 11:33 AM dronestar has replied

dronestar
Member
Posts: 1426
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 609 of 5179 (685074)
12-20-2012 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 608 by kofh2u
12-20-2012 11:33 AM


Re: more information
Drone writes:
To repeat, education is our only chance of gaining sanity.
kofh2u writes:
The liberal solution for Education seems to be to raise tuition so high people wise up.
The get "educated" enough to count four years time and tuition = $200,000.
They will simply buy their kids a franchise business and drop out of school.
Errrm, . . . I take it back, . . . there is no chance of gaining sanity.
(We are all doomed, . . . can those Mayan's prophetize or what?.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by kofh2u, posted 12-20-2012 11:33 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 659 by kofh2u, posted 12-20-2012 6:39 PM dronestar has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024