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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 234 of 5179 (684322)
12-17-2012 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Tangle
12-17-2012 3:50 AM


Re: The Reality aint easy
Could someone pretty please tell me why a civilian would ever need a rapid-fire gun? How on earth can such a weapon ever be justified?
I do know that many people have hunting for a hobby but arent hunting rifles and shotguns for that purpose.
I personally would not shed a single tear if each and every firearm was confiscated and melted.
This message is not actually meant for Tangle but as a general wandering.
Edited by saab93f, : Added reply info.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2012 3:50 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Dogmafood, posted 12-17-2012 8:38 AM saab93f has replied
 Message 247 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 10:05 AM saab93f has not replied
 Message 256 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 11:17 AM saab93f has not replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 242 of 5179 (684339)
12-17-2012 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Dogmafood
12-17-2012 8:38 AM


Re: The Reality aint easy
quote:
Zombies.
Oukei - I was sure there was a valid reason but could just not come up with it myself. Hopefully the living dead do not cross the pond because in here there in no chance in h3ll of getting to buy an AK-47 or M-16.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Dogmafood, posted 12-17-2012 8:38 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 370 of 5179 (684597)
12-18-2012 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by New Cat's Eye
12-17-2012 2:47 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
quote:
That prevents the effective use of the gun for home defense. You shouldn't have to fumble around with a safe while someone's breaking into your house.
Why cannot anything be done with the real problem? In my country very very few people can own handguns and every single gun must be locked in safe or a sturdy lockable cabinet. I do not remember a single instance when a burglary had ended up in the death of the tenant (and yes, by my profession I do know).
The availability of guns and the culture that idolizes the use of guns results in the threshold of using guns being low.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 2:47 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 373 of 5179 (684604)
12-18-2012 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by NoNukes
12-18-2012 3:53 AM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Stastics are easy to read but hard to interpret correctly. Basically no-one is reporting a drug crime but they come up with doing police work. The more effort the police puts to them, the more they appear in crime statistics. The crime itself did not increase...
As you said, the numbers can look "ugly" yet the reality behind them is something else. Then again when you compare 12 dead in Japan as a result of a gun crime to 12.000 in the US the statistics are rather irrelevant - a death is a death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by NoNukes, posted 12-18-2012 3:53 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 380 of 5179 (684613)
12-18-2012 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by Faith
12-18-2012 4:59 AM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
quote:
Tangle: Luckily, our youth don't find it as easy to get and use guns - gun related murder in the UK runs at around 50 per year and has been falling year on year for the last 10 years.
You omitted this part as well. The gun related murder is around 12.000 in the US annually - compare that to the UK number any which way you want and the diff is drastic.
In my country, the more serious traffic crimes are included in the Penal Code - when you look at the numbers without any explanation you get a wrong picture of the situation - just like in the gun related crime as a whole.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Faith, posted 12-18-2012 4:59 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by Faith, posted 12-18-2012 5:11 AM saab93f has replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 382 of 5179 (684615)
12-18-2012 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by Faith
12-18-2012 5:11 AM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
quote:
The point is the general point that gun crime has been rising contrary to the claims of the gun control crowd.
The number of gun crime SHOULD go up when control is tightened - it is the violent crime (especially that resulting in deaths) that should go down.
That is exactly what has happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Faith, posted 12-18-2012 5:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 12-18-2012 5:22 AM saab93f has not replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 391 of 5179 (684626)
12-18-2012 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by Faith
12-18-2012 8:12 AM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Is it completely impossible for you to comprehend the not-so-subtle differences in gun-related killings between the UK and the US?
The latter has a bit over 4 times the population but 600 times the gun-related deaths.
No matter how you try to insult your way around those numbers you are not successful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Faith, posted 12-18-2012 8:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 508 by Faith, posted 12-18-2012 4:00 PM saab93f has replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 547 of 5179 (684877)
12-19-2012 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 508 by Faith
12-18-2012 4:00 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
quote:
I'm not comparing the US with the UK, I was trying to understand what happened when the UK took away people's guns, and the material I found plus the statistics Tangle posted all suggest they got an increase in gun crime during the years immediately following the ban. That includes the graph in the report he posted. If the graph doesn't give an accurate picture then somebody needs to post statistics that actually reflect something meaningful. So far all the statistics posted here look untrustworthy.
Youve already been replied by others. If speed limits are introduced, it is likely that traffic offences will increase. That is exactly what happened in the UK - things that previously were not crime became such. Violent crime and especially gun-related deaths decreased OTOH significantly. That is what matters the most.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Faith, posted 12-18-2012 4:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by kofh2u, posted 12-19-2012 8:07 AM saab93f has not replied
 Message 549 by Faith, posted 12-19-2012 8:16 AM saab93f has not replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 589 of 5179 (685019)
12-20-2012 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 574 by Rahvin
12-19-2012 6:55 PM


Re: Solution to Problem
quote:
..let us not make the same mistake as crash in disproportionately assigning weight to anecdotes over statistics. Just as individual school shootings are statistical anomalies rather than a solid basis for policy making, that single event can only ever be a single event and is not itself a trend.
Generalizations are always dangerous but IMHO the Stand-my-Ground -type of laws are not rare in the US and they represent something that is horribly wrong. Some years ago we read about an exchange student who was shot in someones backyard. Shot and killed yet the shooter was never even charged. THAT IS WHAT THE ABUNDANCE OF GUNS HAS COME UP TO!! (sorry to have shouted). Gun-related violence has been normalized to the extent that people just shrug their shoulders and actually think that these thing just happen. Well, they shouldnt!
In my country kids (adults too) can cut across a neighbors yard on their way home without ever even having to think that they might get shot. Why is that not a good thing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by Rahvin, posted 12-19-2012 6:55 PM Rahvin has not replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 621 of 5179 (685103)
12-20-2012 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 608 by kofh2u
12-20-2012 11:33 AM


Re: more information
quote:
The liberal solution for Education seems to be to raise tuition so high people wise up.
The get "educated" enough to count four years time and tuition = $200,000.
They will simply buy their kids a franchise business and drop out of school.
No, the liberal solution is to educate everyone. That is at least what we "liberal hippie communists" on this side of the Atlantic believe.
I am totally gobsmacked that you (and your fellow "thinkers") think that a nice society would be the one with everyone armed and paranoidly expecting for the worst. No thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by kofh2u, posted 12-20-2012 11:33 AM kofh2u has not replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 1360 of 5179 (688354)
01-22-2013 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1358 by Faith
01-21-2013 11:21 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
I DO have your safety in mind, though I can't really say I don't have my own in mind as well, but the main thing is I care about this nation and I don't want to see it go down as it seems to be doing, and I hope hope hope that God may still have mercy on us AS A NATION. And I have a fondness for Britain too, and Europe, and Western Civilization in general. The thing is the only thing that would REALLY save any of it is a return to the God of the Bible. Attitudes at EvC don't allow much hope for that, but EvC isn't necessarily the bellwether and God could still bring people back to Him if He so wills. I hope and pray He does. Meanwhile it can't hurt to argue for the Second Amendment, because if that falls, then I would KNOW that God isn't going to have mercy on us, it's all over for sure.
You could not be any more wrong even if you tried really really hard. The societies where religion has THE LEAST affect, are those that are the most affluent and also safe. They vary from likes of Japan to the Nordic countries.
I have rarely been more proud of our common Nordic ideals than when I listened to the PM of Norway giving a speech after the horrible tragedy of Oslo and Utya. He said in effect that the horrible deed must not result in fear and that living together as fellow men is the key, not arming ourselves to the teeth.
Tale ved nasjonal minnemarkering for 22.7.2011 - regjeringen.no

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1358 by Faith, posted 01-21-2013 11:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1362 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 3:50 AM saab93f has replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 1363 of 5179 (688357)
01-22-2013 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1362 by Faith
01-22-2013 3:50 AM


Re: The Un-American Mind
quote:
I look forward to finding out how this message is going to be misunderstood. I do try to be clear but it's apparently inevitable that I'll be heard saying something remote from my intention.
God is an imaginary crutch for people who are not strong enough to trust in themselves AND their fellow men. To threaten that world would go astray if more and more people eat shellfish or wear polyester is nothing short of absurd.
What I was especially proud of in the way Norway reacted to the tragedy was that they did not call for peeps to arm themselves but to stand even stronger with the liberal ideology and let the extremism wither away and die.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1362 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 3:50 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1364 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 4:03 AM saab93f has replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 1365 of 5179 (688359)
01-22-2013 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1364 by Faith
01-22-2013 4:03 AM


Re: The Un-American Mind
We are apparently worlds apart.
Lets see:
Norway is one of the most affluent nations on earth. It is also one of the least corrupted and one of the least affected by religion.
A very violent anti-islam extremist who chose his targets because they represented the liberal ideology was able to commit an atrocity.
The reaction from Norway was that they will not succumb to fear but to rely on the ideology that has brought them to being one of the best countries in the world to live in. I have a strong faith in people and I honestly believe that even those with religious conviction can have morality.
P.S. I am not from Norway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1364 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 4:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1378 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 12:57 PM saab93f has replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 1384 of 5179 (688440)
01-22-2013 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1378 by Faith
01-22-2013 12:57 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
I am proud that the response to an atrocity can be something else than adding more guns. I totally loath the hypocrisy of the NRA and after Newtown-response was not sure if they are sane at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1378 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 12:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1385 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 3:28 PM saab93f has replied

saab93f
Member (Idle past 1507 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(1)
Message 1408 of 5179 (688501)
01-23-2013 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1385 by Faith
01-22-2013 3:28 PM


Re: The Un-American Mind
You've been fed a heavy dose of propaganda. Where do you think you are getting your opinions? Where is all that gun-phobia coming from anyway? You might try to trace the source. It's THAT attitude that's totally insane. And you don't even suspect it's just propaganda do you?
Hold on, the fact that a gun-related tragedy can be countered with something else than with more guns is insane?
I honestly believe that you do not come even close to understanding the point Straggler (and partially myself) have been advocating. A school yard with zero guns is what children SHOULD be living with and that is what the school yards in absolute majority of Europe are like.
I dont have a gun-phobia, I just cannot see anything good in handguns and assault weapons in civilian hands. I am a lieutenant in my countrys army so it is not as I was a green-hippie-pacifist or whatnot insultive you can come up with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1385 by Faith, posted 01-22-2013 3:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1410 by Faith, posted 01-23-2013 3:20 AM saab93f has replied

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