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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2768 of 5179 (733407)
07-17-2014 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 2764 by mram10
07-17-2014 12:09 AM


Vehicles can be used just like guns to kill people. Should we get rid of cars? No, because they are useful and being used wrong, just like guns.

Vehicles are methods of transportation, and going outside of that primary use, could be used a weapons. Guns are weapons, and outside of that primary use, they're dangerous versions of firecrackers.

Does anyone even know the true meaning of the 2nd??? Jefferson said it best, when he made it clear it is to defend the people from tyranny by the gov't. If you believe it isn't possible, then I cannot help you.

I have no problem with most anyone bearing arms such as existed at the time the 2nd amendment was written. But now days, an individual can accumulate an arsenal that could do a pretty good job of outgunning a revolutionary era army.

I'm not concerned about government tyranny. I'm concerned about some heavily armed nut-job who could pull off some pretty heavy tyranny all by himself.

If you want to play with weapons of war, join the army.

Moose

"It's not the bullet that kills you, it's the hole" - Laurie Anderson


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2764 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 12:09 AM mram10 has acknowledged this reply

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2798 of 5179 (733526)
07-17-2014 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 2796 by mram10
07-17-2014 9:32 PM


So, you like people having weapons of mass destruction?
Guns don't kill people, people do. I question the sanity of any fool that says otherwise.

People use guns to kill people.

I suppose we could track down all the people with guns, and take the people away from the guns (as opposed to taking guns away from people). After all, it's the people that are dangerous, not the guns.

By the way, when's the last time you heard of a drive by stabbing? Or a drive by clubbing?

The tool is important, and a gun is a very dangerous and effective tool.

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2796 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 9:32 PM mram10 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2799 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 10:07 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 2830 of 5179 (733651)
07-19-2014 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 2805 by petrophysics1
07-18-2014 5:09 AM


Wyoming, the land of few people to kill
Well according to the opinions presented here, in most part, I should live in the state with the highest homicide rate.

I live in Wyoming which has the highest rate of firearm ownership of any state. 59.7% of the people in Wyoming own firearms.( think about that since people under 18 can not buy a gun and that's 23% of the population)

The homicide rate is 1.4/100,000 and from guns .9/100,000.

Wyoming has a very small and diffuse population. Of course the gun control needs are different from other parts of the country. Out of curiosity, how about you looking up the homicide rates in Casper and/or the other great population concentrations in Wyoming?

{ABE - Per here, Casper's murder rate for the years 2000 to 2012 ranged from 0 to 8/100,000. The "8" was 4 murders in 2003. Apparently Casper has a population of about 50,000. No figures were listed for firearm homicides.}

Just because Wyoming doesn't have a problem, that doesn't mean that we don't need to address the problem happening elsewhere in the country. Not to mention all the firearms that are going to Mexico. Mexico's gun problem is probably largely based on U.S. supply.

Moose

Edited by Minnemooseus, : ABE


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2805 by petrophysics1, posted 07-18-2014 5:09 AM petrophysics1 has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2920 of 5179 (745010)
12-17-2014 11:31 PM


The state of "Arms", 1791
quote:
The Second Amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791, as part of the first ten amendments composing the Bill of Rights.

Source

I would find it interesting, for someone in Congress to introduce a bill defining "Arms" (per the 2nd Amendment) as being weaponry as it existed in 1791.

How could such be unconstitutional? At the time the 2nd Amendment was adopted, that's what "arms" were.

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


Replies to this message:
 Message 2928 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-18-2014 9:44 AM Minnemooseus has responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 3069 of 5179 (745321)
12-21-2014 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2928 by New Cat's Eye
12-18-2014 9:44 AM


Re: The state of "Arms", 1791
Cat Sci writes:

Minnemooseus writes:

I would find it interesting, for someone in Congress to introduce a bill defining "Arms" (per the 2nd Amendment) as being weaponry as it existed in 1791.

Would you also find it interesting to introduce a bill defining "Speech" as being communication that existed at time?

Minnemooseus writes:

How could such be unconstitutional? At the time the 2nd Amendment was adopted, that's what "arms" were.

Yeah, just written and spoken words, no free speech in broadcasting or on the internet.

These 1st amendment comments, and I am going to do no more, at least within this topic.

The 1st Amendment's intent was to prohibit the restriction of the message, although it did mention a medium (Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;). IF you wished to interpret it absolutely literally, then handwritten text would NOT be protected.

Radio content is still speech, and the internet can easily be interpreted as being a modern "press". End of 1st Amendment comments.

2nd Amendment: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Now, I think that the authors of the 2nd Amendment were unconcerned about defining "arms" or in anyway limiting the possession of "arms" because all "arms" of the time were acceptable to them. But the state of "arms" has since advanced what I would call several orders of magnitude. Does not the 2nd Amendment allow a citizen to have their own personal H-bomb? Had 1791 had the current "arms", would that amendment have been done as it were? I don't think so.

Minnemooseus

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Disable smilies.


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2928 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-18-2014 9:44 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3070 by Faith, posted 12-21-2014 9:49 PM Minnemooseus has responded
 Message 3106 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-22-2014 2:52 PM Minnemooseus has responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 3072 of 5179 (745325)
12-21-2014 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3070 by Faith
12-21-2014 9:49 PM


Re: The state of "Arms", 1791
The 2nd Amendment leaves a LOT to be desired concerning the details. If it were not part of the Constitution, it probably would be ruled unconstitutional for being too vague.

Anyway, if there was to be any non-arbitrary defined limits on what "arms" the citizen could have, it seems to me to be what I presented in the first "The state of "Arms", 1791" message:

Minnemooseus writes:

...a bill defining "Arms" (per the 2nd Amendment) as being weaponry as it existed in 1791.

Faith writes:

What about bow and arrow?

I would think that would be 2nd Amendment protected, as would be knives and swords. And in 1791, bows and arrows, knives, and swords were probably more dangerous than firearms, as weapons of mass killing.

Possessing modern firearms can give an individual the firepower of an entire 1791 army, and that might be an understatement.

Added by edit: By the way, re: "The vast majority of gun owners in America are responsible law-abiding citizens." There's a thin line between "responsible" and "irresponsible idiot". But that's been much covered by others already.

Moose

--- An argument might be made that "The pen is mightier than the sword", but if I were in a room with a crazy person having a pen and a sword, it's not the pen that would concern me. ---

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added by edit.

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Misspelled "too".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3070 by Faith, posted 12-21-2014 9:49 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 3142 of 5179 (745531)
12-23-2014 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 3106 by New Cat's Eye
12-22-2014 2:52 PM


Re: The state of "Arms", 1791
Cat Sci writes:

Minnemooseus writes:

Now, I think that the authors of the 2nd Amendment were unconcerned about defining "arms" or in anyway limiting the possession of "arms" because all "arms" of the time were acceptable to them.

Well you're wrong. Artillery existed at that time.

Arms were meant to be a firearm that a single individual could use.

Even assuming that your definition of "arms" is correct (albeit not so defined in the Constitution), is not a muzzle loaded cannon still a weapon that a single individual could use?

Personally, I don't find muzzle loaded cannons to be that scarey.

Cat Sci writes:

Minnemooseus writes:

Does not the 2nd Amendment allow a citizen to have their own personal H-bomb?

Ah, the ol' Godwin's Law of guns...

As an online discussion on the 2nd amendment grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving individuals owning nuclear weapons approaches 1.

OK, the H-bomb was a most extreme example. Does the 2nd Amendment allow a citizen to have their own personal rocket propelled grenade launcher and ammunition? If not, why not?

Moose

Further (somewhat related, optional) reading:

What did it mean to 'bear arms' in 1791?

Edited by Minnemooseus, : Forgot to do my further reading link.


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3106 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-22-2014 2:52 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 3240 of 5179 (746662)
01-09-2015 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 3106 by New Cat's Eye
12-22-2014 2:52 PM


Re: The state of "Arms", 1791
Now, I think that the authors of the 2nd Amendment were unconcerned about defining "arms" or in anyway limiting the possession of "arms" because all "arms" of the time were acceptable to them.

Well you're wrong. Artillery existed at that time.

Arms were meant to be a firearm that a single individual could use.

Does not the 2nd Amendment allow a citizen to have their own personal H-bomb?

Ah, the ol' Godwin's Law of guns...

As an online discussion on the 2nd amendment grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving individuals owning nuclear weapons approaches 1.

A reply to my message 3142, oh high and mighty one?

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3106 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-22-2014 2:52 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3241 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-09-2015 9:13 AM Minnemooseus has responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 3256 of 5179 (746890)
01-10-2015 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3241 by New Cat's Eye
01-09-2015 9:13 AM


Re: The state of "Arms", 1791
And the 2nd amendment doesn't "allow" for anything. It just says to not infringe on the Peoples' right to have guns.

Other laws are what disallow people from having grenade launchers. Google "destructive device".

The entire 2nd Amendment:

quote:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

"Arms", not "guns". And "arms" is not defined to mean guns.

Cat Sci, in message 3106, writes:

Arms were meant to be a firearm that a single individual could use.

I find that definition, although it's not in the Constitution, to be acceptable. But I don't see that that definition excludes such things as rocket powered grenade launchers. What do you think is the limit of the type of "arms" a citizen is Constitutionally allowed to "keep and bear"?

Google "destructive device".

Destructive device:

quote:
In the United States, a destructive device is a type of firearm or explosive device regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934, revised by the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968 and Gun Control Act of 1968.

Examples of destructive devices include grenades, and firearms with a bore over one half of an inch, including some semi-automatic shotguns. While current federal laws allow destructive devices, some states have banned them from transfer to civilians. In states where banned, only law enforcement officers and military personnel are allowed to possess them.


quote:
Examples of destructive devices include... firearms with a bore over one half of an inch.

50 caliber seems pretty arbitrary. Why not limit it to 22 caliber? What do YOU think is the limit of the type of "arms" a citizen is Constitutionally allowed to "keep and bear"?

Moose

Edited by Minnemooseus, : The shame - Screwed up a quote box.


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3241 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-09-2015 9:13 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3257 by RAZD, posted 01-11-2015 3:07 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded
 Message 3258 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-11-2015 3:16 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 3370 of 5179 (755518)
04-09-2015 2:01 AM


Even the NRA Thinks Guns Are Too Dangerous for an NRA Convention
http://mic.com/...ns-are-too-dangerous-for-an-nra-convention

quote:
The Tennessean reports that all firearms on display at the NRA event this weekend will be required to be "nonoperational," with the "firing pins removed." Gun owners will also be unable to take their weapons into Bridgestone Arena for the convention's speaking and musical slots.

Apparently, the event's organizers don't feel that the event would be safe with a bunch of working guns, despite the fact that the NRA regularly argues that "an armed society is a polite society" and "the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." Instead of Average Joe-style good guys with guns, the NRA is paying $200,000 extra for professional security.

It's almost as though the NRA thinks a bunch of live guns in one place could be extremely dangerous.

The gun-rights crowd has some screwed-up priorities: Funnily enough, the NRA that doesn't want its convention to have live firearms is the same NRA that believes guns should be legal to carry in churches, parks, schools and hospitals.


I guess it would be too embarrassing to have a shooting at a NRA convention, to take any chances.

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


Replies to this message:
 Message 3371 by RAZD, posted 04-10-2015 12:39 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply
 Message 3372 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-10-2015 12:44 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 3768 of 5179 (765626)
08-02-2015 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 3766 by Percy
08-02-2015 1:29 PM


High gun death rates in some areas
Jar is pointing out that gun deaths are still relatively low compared to auto accident deaths.

I think one thing that is getting lost is that gun incidents are not uniformly distributed throughout the country. Gun control may indeed be a minor problem in rural areas/states, but it is a major problem in at least some urban areas.

Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3766 by Percy, posted 08-02-2015 1:29 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3769 by saab93f, posted 08-02-2015 3:19 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply
 Message 3772 by Percy, posted 08-02-2015 5:43 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 4189 of 5179 (770229)
10-02-2015 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 4187 by Faith
10-02-2015 4:50 AM


Re: Oregon college shooter targeted Christians
He called himself "Lithium Love" on a dating website -- which reminds me that most or all of the mass shooters have been on some kind of psychotropic drugs. In fact the drugs should get major attention but they are hardly ever mentioned while the gun control agenda gets all the media coverage.

Certainly a valid point, but the bottom line was NOT that a shooter was under the influence of guns, and killed the victim(s) with drugs.

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4187 by Faith, posted 10-02-2015 4:50 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 4495 of 5179 (774301)
12-15-2015 8:20 PM


Something to read, if you want (Yes, bare link)

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 4954 of 5179 (786289)
06-19-2016 4:51 PM


Good 2nd Amendment summary from "Raging Pencils" (aka "Far Left Side")

Source

Moose


Replies to this message:
 Message 4955 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-20-2016 9:42 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3754
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 4955 of 5179 (786368)
06-20-2016 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 4954 by Minnemooseus
06-19-2016 4:51 PM


Re: Good 2nd Amendment summary from "Raging Pencils" (aka "Far Left Side")
And the follow-up:

Source

Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4954 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-19-2016 4:51 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 4956 by Diomedes, posted 06-21-2016 10:18 AM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

  
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