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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Panda
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 108 of 5179 (684107)
12-15-2012 6:26 PM


It's obvious...
...Americans need more guns!

What could possibly go wrong.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

Panda
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 113 of 5179 (684112)
12-15-2012 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by hooah212002
12-15-2012 6:33 PM


Hooah writes:

CF writes:

I sympathise with, and grieve for, the parents who lost children but it's still the case that the leading cause of death in children is traffic accidents

......aannnnd???? Guess what? We are doing what the fuck we can to lower those deaths. Or have car manufacturers done absolutely nothing to try and make their cars safer? Do we NOT pass more laws about traffic safety?

This does seem to me to be one of the most stupid arguments against gun control.

House fires kill fewer children than cars.
Drowning kills fewer children than cars.
Poisoning kills fewer children than cars.
Guns kill fewer children than cars.

Which cause of death, from that list, should not be actively and continuously reduced using any means possible?
Only guns, it seems.

Guns may be a symptom of a violent culture, but we treat symptoms as well as the disease.
In fact, we often can't cure the disease and instead we only treat the symptoms.
America's violent culture might never be cured, but there are definitely ways to mitigate the damage caused by it.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by hooah212002, posted 12-15-2012 6:33 PM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by hooah212002, posted 12-15-2012 7:14 PM Panda has responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 125 of 5179 (684139)
12-15-2012 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by hooah212002
12-15-2012 7:14 PM


Hooah writes:

I deplore the idea that we are somehow a violent culture, as opposed to a violent nature. Guess what? There was plenty of fucking violence before vidya games and movies! Anyone care to remember the Roman fucking Colosseum? People act like 24 hour news programs or Grand Theft Auto V or even Call of Duty are the only reason people shoot each other up.


Personally, I see little difference between American and British culture.
We both like violent films, violent games, etc.

People on both continents have a fascination with weaponry.
The only significant difference I see is that in America there is easy access to those weapons.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by hooah212002, posted 12-15-2012 7:14 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

Panda
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 136 of 5179 (684164)
12-16-2012 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by crashfrog
12-16-2012 1:02 AM


crashfrog writes:

Well, no, you're not. You're not doing a goddamn thing to lower those deaths. Literally nothing is what you're doing.


Trying to convince others that gun control is necessary is literally not nothing.
It is literally how democracy works.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by crashfrog, posted 12-16-2012 1:02 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 246 of 5179 (684345)
12-17-2012 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by NoNukes
12-17-2012 9:52 AM


Re: The Reality aint easy
NoNukes writes:

I also note that the process of amending the constitution to provide equal rights to women was a 50+ year effort that ultimately failed.


That is a damning argument against the Constitution.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by NoNukes, posted 12-17-2012 9:52 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Panda
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 305 of 5179 (684433)
12-17-2012 3:08 PM


Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
In Australia it did.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...n-control-work-in-australia

quote:
...Australia’s gun control regime, first passed in 1996 in response to a massacre in Tasmania that left 35 dead. The law banned semiautomatic and automatic rifles and shotguns. It also instituted a mandatory buy-back program for newly banned weapons.
quote:
So what have the Australian laws actually done for homicide and suicide rates? Howard cites a study by Andrew Leigh of Australian National University and Christine Neill of Wilfrid Laurier University finding that the firearm homicide rate fell by 59 percent, and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65 percent, in the decade after the law was introduced, without a parallel increase in non-firearm homicides and suicides. That provides strong circumstantial evidence for the law’s effectiveness.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 3:39 PM Panda has responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 322 of 5179 (684459)
12-17-2012 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 3:39 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
Crashfrog writes:

...not at the cost of having the US spiral into lawlessness like Europe, like the UK, where home invasion robbery is "the new normal" that people accept is going to happen, it's a legitimate mode of employment, maybe you could be a mate and help the guy cart off your goods, but god forbid you be so impolite as to use anything approaching force to prevent him from helping himself to your possessions, your wife, and maybe your life.


None of that is true.
Not sure what else to say other than that.

And in response to your graphs:
Violent crimes are not gun deaths.
Armed robberies are not gun deaths.
(Even your own chart shows that armed robberies has dropped back to 1990's levels, which implies that the peak was not connected to the gun ban.)

I am sure that if you had some evidence that gun deaths had not decreased, then you would have posted it.
So, as I said, banning guns reduced gun deaths in Australia.

{abe}
"The United Kingdom has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world with 0.07 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants in 2009 compared to the United States' 3.0 and to Germany's 0.21." http://en.wikipedia.org/...un_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 3:39 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 12-17-2012 4:10 PM Panda has responded
 Message 341 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:22 PM Panda has responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 325 of 5179 (684462)
12-17-2012 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Faith
12-17-2012 4:10 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
Faith writes:

The gun control people always claim that the statistics show crimes being reduced where guns are prohibited, and the keep-and-bear-arms side always claims that the statistics show a rise in crime when they are prohibited


Actually, the statistics show a drop in gun deaths, but the pro-gun people move the goal-posts and say crime increased.
And there is no way to separate an increase in crime from the world-wide recession: recession and poverty and crime are very closely linked.

But, regardless, what would you prefer?
A decrease in deaths and an increase in robberies; or maintain the number of deaths and robberies?

I prefer robbery over death each and every time.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 12-17-2012 4:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Faith, posted 12-17-2012 4:21 PM Panda has responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 327 of 5179 (684466)
12-17-2012 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Faith
12-17-2012 4:21 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
Faith writes:

Nothing you've said convinces me to trust your statistics either.


Then there is nothing of substance for you here.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Faith, posted 12-17-2012 4:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 330 of 5179 (684476)
12-17-2012 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by Dr Adequate
12-17-2012 4:26 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
Dr. A writes:

Ask to see the source. The real statistics will ultimately originate from someone in a position to keep count, such as the police. The made-up statistics won't.


You would also need to dig a little deeper as well.
You would need to understand how the police count the crimes.

For example:

quote:
The new National Crime Reporting Standard means hundreds of thousands of previously "invisible" crimes now show up in the figures.
For example, if a vandal damages a row of cars, police must now record each car as a separate case of criminal damage.

I can't find the report, but I think that spousal abuse used to not be included in the UK's 'violent crime' figures - but now it is.

Also, sexual assaults and rapes have increased massively, but not simply because more people are being attacked, but also because there is a better (though far from perfect) attitude from police to victims of rape: therefore more attacks are reported. (But I doubt that a lack of guns has caused a recent large increase in sexual assaults, considering the circumstances where most rapes occur.)

I think Faith would learn a lot from researching the statistics herself, and I hope she does.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-17-2012 4:26 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 344 of 5179 (684506)
12-17-2012 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:04 PM


Still not true
Crashfrog writes:

...meek surrender to the "new normal" of vastly elevated burglary rates and hooliganism displayed in the UK.


As I said the first time you said it: that is not true.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:04 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(4)
Message 353 of 5179 (684520)
12-17-2012 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 5:22 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
Crashfrog writes:

I exaggerate slightly, but its all based on real events in the UK - prosecuting homeowners who have used force to repel invaders, awarding compensation claims to burglars injured "on the job" by unsafe home conditions, and so on. You people are fucking crazy over there about what you're prepared to tolerate going on in your homes, and I don't understand it at all.


No, you are not exaggerating: you are simply wrong.
http://www.usak.org.tr/istanbul/files/bcs25.pdf

Oh look!
Burglary is not out of control.
The UK has not meekly surrendered.

And I challenge you to provide a link to a burglar being paid compensation....
{abe}tbh: I have found one link where someone blindly shot from an allotment shed and nearly killed a burglar trying to break in to the shed. But a small fine sounds fair, considering he was not prosecuted for anything else. And this is the only instance of compensation I have found - and it is not home invasion. (Allotments are semi-public areas where people without gardens can grow plants, vegetables, etc.)

Crashfrog writes:

The UK has an astronomical crime rate, double the crime rate of the US in every category, including violent crime:


It also has a considerably lower homicide rate than America.
And one of the lowest gun death rates in the world.
Which if you remember the topic, gun deaths are what we are trying to prevent.

Crashfrog writes:

I never said that they were. The problem is, a gun death isn't the only bad thing that can happen to you.


Correct. You can also get run over or die of aids.
But that is irrelevant.
Making guns illegal in Australia greatly reduced gun deaths.

Crashfrog writes:

Unless you think a reduction in homicides eight years later can somehow be connected to the gun ban, but it's not obvious why that should be the case.


Do you think that a gun ban would produce an instant reduction?
I think it would take several years at least.
How long do you think it should take?

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 5:22 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 7:47 PM Panda has responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 366 of 5179 (684561)
12-17-2012 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by crashfrog
12-17-2012 7:47 PM


Re: Does banning guns reduce gun deaths?
Crashfrog writes:

Fully half of all burglaries happen while the home occupants are present. Fully half. That's a guy breaking into your home while you're asleep, armed with who knows what - even a firearm! - creeping around your sleeping body.

I'm sorry but that is out of control.


Oh - I see.
You are making some weird point, not about numbers, but how the burglaries occur.

Crashfrog writes:

quote:
A violent burglar who called himself Lucifer and received a record-breaking sentence for his crimes won a partial victory today in his damages action against the Home Office.
http://www.standard.co.uk/...r-injured-feelings-6952943.html

Just as I thought.
You aren't able to provide a link to a burglar being paid compensation.
Would you like to try again?

Crashfrog writes:

Apparently burglars filing suit against their victims is so commonplace that the UK has moved to ban the practice:
...
Truly amazing. Topsy-turvy land.


No. Not so commonplace - merely a loophole that needs closing.
But at least we try to fix things that are clearly wrong.
So, why doesn't America?
Or did you not know that American criminals sue their victims?
Truly amazing...hypocrisy. How are you enjoying living in your topsy-turvy land?

Crashfrog writes:

Well, congratulations on that, but you've constructed a society where people aren't safe in their own homes, and where criminals are allowed to file suit against those who resist their criminal predation.


They are significantly safer from being killed than in America.
Criminals are also allowed to sue victims in America - congratulations to you too!

Crashfrog writes:

But, nobody's getting killed with a gun! Well, except about fifty people every year. But fuck those guys, right?


Wrong. We are trying to reduce gun crime even further.
Perhaps you should try to. It might have saved those children.
But you want your toys, so fuck those kids, right?

Crashfrog writes:

Australia didn't "make guns illegal", they enacted gun control and then at a much later date, homicides were lower. You've not made the case that Australia's gun control actually caused there to be less homicides, and if you assign the credit for the eventual decline in homicides to Australia's gun control laws but not the immediate and precipitous increase in all other crimes, you're just cherry-picking stats.


The immediate and precipitous increase immediately and precipitously dropped back down.
You are just cherry-picking stats.

Australia banned guns and gun deaths went down dramatically.
You have not shown otherwise.

Do you think that a gun ban would produce an instant reduction?
I think it would take several years at least.
How long do you think it should take?


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by crashfrog, posted 12-17-2012 7:47 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 385 of 5179 (684618)
12-18-2012 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by Faith
12-18-2012 4:59 AM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Faith writes:

The article looks like good journalism to me.


Perhaps you could tell me, from that article, how many gun deaths there were?
Can you?
Or did the article 'forget' to actually post any details?

Remember, this debate is about gun deaths.

Are gun deaths in the UK increasing?
It is a simple question: can you answer it?


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Faith, posted 12-18-2012 4:59 AM Faith has not yet responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 392 of 5179 (684627)
12-18-2012 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by Faith
12-18-2012 8:12 AM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Faith writes:

I think all you UK leftists ought to dedicate yourselves to freeing that poor man Tony Martin who is wrongfully sitting in jail.


Yeah - we should be trying to free a man who is not in prison.
I think you USA rightists should try to get at least one thing right.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Faith, posted 12-18-2012 8:12 AM Faith has not yet responded

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