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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Theodoric
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Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 485 of 5179 (684743)
12-18-2012 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
12-18-2012 1:48 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
but they claim to be working
Big difference between working and in firing condition.
I have a working 1908 belgian 12 gauge shotgun that I would never fire. The action works great. But it isn't safe to fire.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-18-2012 1:48 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 486 of 5179 (684744)
12-18-2012 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
12-18-2012 1:51 PM


Re: empty shells are not ammunition
That is the fucking point. This stuff would have to be smuggled. That makes it harder to do. That is the purpose of doing these things. To make it harder.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-18-2012 1:51 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-18-2012 2:12 PM Theodoric has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 492 of 5179 (684751)
12-18-2012 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 487 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
12-18-2012 2:10 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
A blanket ban is stupid. No they won't just disappear, but guns do take maintenance. The average criminal is probably not going to maintain his gun so that it will function for years and years. Improperly stored or maintained and a gun can become inoperable in a very short time.
That being said regulating them through registration and logging ammo sales is probably two good steps to start.
I was not sure on the exact dates on the weapons, but my main point on this is that these weapons are pretty durable. Even if we go with the low end of the dates that these guns are from, let's say this Hawken rifle, we are still looking at some weapons surviving 123 years.
These are rare examples of weapons that were well cared for. This not the norm. These are exceptional pieces that many people took care of on a regular basis. They were not stored in someones closet.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-18-2012 2:10 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(4)
Message 493 of 5179 (684752)
12-18-2012 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
12-18-2012 2:12 PM


Re: empty shells are not ammunition
Again, using Mexico and the War on Drugs as a analogy...tell that to the Marijuana Dealers.
I don't know about where you live but around here it is all USA grown.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-18-2012 2:12 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-18-2012 2:29 PM Theodoric has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 502 of 5179 (684767)
12-18-2012 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by xongsmith
12-18-2012 3:18 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
That and he gives no source. We have no way to know if the data is correct or something he or someone else pulled out of their ass.
ABE
We don't even know if the chart is for Australia.
Nothing anyone claims has any validity if they are not welling to present their sources. This is one of a long list of things that Crash threw out without any support.
He reminds me of a monkey in zoo. Flinging shit as he does a crash gallop. He has out gished Duane Gish.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by xongsmith, posted 12-18-2012 3:18 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 4:04 PM Theodoric has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 503 of 5179 (684768)
12-18-2012 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by xongsmith
12-18-2012 3:18 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Found his source. Amazing it doesnt agree with him.
quote:
After Port Arthur, the then Prime Minister John Howard introduced laws that one article calls some of the world’s toughest gun laws. Semi-automatic rifles and pump-action shotguns were among the first guns to be entirely outlawed for regular citizens (that is, not military or police personnel). This led to the removal of up to 700,000 guns via the buyback scheme. This almost immediately led to a sharp decline in gun-related deaths (homicide, suicide and accidental) in the following two years. Five years later, in 2001, gun crime was still significantly lower, making it clear that the dropping rates of gun-related deaths were not just a fleeting trend.
In more recent times, it seems Australia has become an even more safe place to live. In 1991, pre-gun law Australia saw 3.64 gun-related deaths per 100,000 people. Today, this has almost halved to 1.71. For comparison, the current rate in California alone, and solely for homicides, is 3.37 per 100,000 people. Even more shockingly, the rate of fire arm assaults per 100,000 people is 44.78. While Australia does have a smaller population than the US, you can clearly see that gun crimes in America are unacceptably high, and it seems about time to start implementing a solution, like Australia did.
I guess that is why he didn't give a source.
Edited by Theodoric, : forgot to bold as in original

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by xongsmith, posted 12-18-2012 3:18 PM xongsmith has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 524 of 5179 (684808)
12-18-2012 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 519 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 5:03 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
They're not meant to tell you anything about guns, and I never said they were about guns. They were about homicides.
So not about the topic?
Classic.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 5:03 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 5:32 PM Theodoric has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 531 of 5179 (684818)
12-18-2012 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 526 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 5:32 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
The topic is whether gun control can reduce homicide.
That's the problem. Your arguing the wrong topic.
That's a form of misrepresentation.
Are you being ironic again?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 5:32 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 533 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 5:50 PM Theodoric has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 534 of 5179 (684823)
12-18-2012 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 532 by foreveryoung
12-18-2012 5:47 PM


We don't debate links.
If you got something to say, say it.
If not don't post.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by foreveryoung, posted 12-18-2012 5:47 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 537 by foreveryoung, posted 12-18-2012 6:09 PM Theodoric has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 535 of 5179 (684825)
12-18-2012 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 533 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 5:50 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
why are so many people trying to convince me that Australia's gun control reduced the homicide rate?
Cause according to your source it did.
ABE
Still resorting to attacking the poster I see.
Classic frog
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 5:50 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 539 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 9:07 PM Theodoric has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 538 of 5179 (684832)
12-18-2012 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 537 by foreveryoung
12-18-2012 6:09 PM


Try using preview buttons.
No need to be rude.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 537 by foreveryoung, posted 12-18-2012 6:09 PM foreveryoung has seen this message but not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 726 of 5179 (685334)
12-21-2012 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 564 by New Cat's Eye
12-19-2012 4:46 PM


Re: Harvard Study
The conclusions of this article mean nothing. I believe Panda touched on a couple things already.
One important thing is that this is not a peer reviewed study. This was published in university law journal. University law journals are student edited. If this would have stood up to review why was it not published in the journals of the American Society of Criminology.
These guys are writing in a law journal. The figures are going to be skewed or cherry picked to make their point. Look at Luxembourg,
They claim a murder rate of 9/100,000. According to every other source they have had no other year over 2.5 You can look that up at UNODC.org.
Someone has already addressed this on another forum.
quote:
They give a homicide rate of 9.01/100,000 for Luxembourg for 2002. Funny how they picked that year.
Re the homicide rates there, they state:
The homicide rate data comes from an annually published report, CANADIAN CENTRE FOR JUSTICE STATISTICS, HOMICIDE IN CANADA, JURISTAT, for the years 2001-2004. Each year’s report gives homicide statistics for a dozen or so foreign nations in a section labeled “Homicide Rates for Selected Countries.” This section of the reports gives no explanation of why it selects the various nations whose homicide statistics it covers. Also without explanation, the nations covered differ from year to year. Thus, for instance, murder statistics for Germany and Hungary are given in all four of the pamphlets (2001, 2002, 2003, 2004), for Russia in three years (2001, 2002, and 2004), for France in two years (2001 and 2003), and for Norway and Sweden in only one year (2001).
Well fucking duh, Don and Gary. The list is obviously in descending order by homicide rate -- from highest to lowest. The country rankings vary from year to year.
Luxembourg just happened to make it into the 2002 edition.
Now, let's compare that "9.01/100,000" to the figure I offered in my earlier post for 2002, taken from wiki's list: 0.90/100,000.
Hmm. Is anyone suspecting a MISPLACED DECIMAL in the Canadian publication? Does no one think it is just beyond bizarre that in a country with a population somewhere under 450,000 there would have been 40 or more homicides? I know, someone in the US might not think so; but really, do the math for NYC, say. Even the much reviled Washington DC has only hit 9/100,000 once in recorded history.
If that little datum were true, nearly one out of every 10,000 people in Luxembourg was murdered in 2002. Does ANYONE believe that? I dunno ... there may have been some sort of epidemic of murder in Luxembourg that year, or a couple of mass murders ... but nobody really seems to have noticed, if so.
Do we really believe that Kates and Mauser, highly educated and knowledgable fellows that they are, believed that statistic for an instant?
Would anyone else with a shred of intelligence or integrity believe it?
Look at Luxembourg stats for yourself.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 564 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-19-2012 4:46 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 728 of 5179 (685336)
12-21-2012 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 727 by RAZD
12-21-2012 8:21 PM


Re: ..only the killers will have guns when they are illegal..
You also see in Kofh2u's graph that there is essentially no change in homicides - they peak and fall in the same range with death penalty and without penalty.
And have you noticed that he supplies no source for all of these charts. All the charts are hosted on his own tripod.com site. I suspect the data is all made up.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 727 by RAZD, posted 12-21-2012 8:21 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 811 of 5179 (685771)
12-26-2012 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 808 by kofh2u
12-26-2012 2:34 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
What is it I have not sourced???
Everything that is hosted on your tripod.com site.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 808 by kofh2u, posted 12-26-2012 2:34 PM kofh2u has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 846 of 5179 (685891)
12-27-2012 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 841 by crashfrog
12-27-2012 7:39 PM


Re: ...one idiot to another....
I've actually made quite a few arguments in this thread, all of which await your response.
No you haven't. If you had, you would have told us which post it was. Instead you are no better than the creo-fundies and their evidence.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 841 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 7:39 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 850 by crashfrog, posted 12-27-2012 8:34 PM Theodoric has replied

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