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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1917 of 5179 (692562)
03-05-2013 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1879 by Taq
02-23-2013 10:38 AM


Hi Taq,
When was the NATIONAL Guard formed?
By whom was the NATIONAL Guard formed?
By whom is the NATIONAL Guard paid?
Who controls the NATIONAL Guard?
The NATIONAL Guard is not a State militia but is an entity that was created to keep the States from having a militia.
BTW the answer to all those questions are the Federal government.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1879 by Taq, posted 02-23-2013 10:38 AM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1919 by NoNukes, posted 03-05-2013 1:21 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 1926 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2013 10:34 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1918 of 5179 (692566)
03-05-2013 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1892 by Percy
02-26-2013 10:53 AM


Re: Still confused...?
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
My reaction is that we hold life much more precious today than a couple centuries ago. For example, the more civilized the country the less likely is capital punishment. We do have to start taking away people's guns because we hold life far too precious to leave life or death decisions up to self appointed individuals.
How can you make that statement with a straight face?
Life is so precious that we won't put someone who has murdered an individual to death.
YET,
We are short (21,923,951) at least 20 million consumers that would be tax payers now due to abortion's preformed from 1972 to 1990.
I guess the only life that you think is precious counts.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1892 by Percy, posted 02-26-2013 10:53 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1920 by kofh2u, posted 03-05-2013 1:37 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1932 of 5179 (692772)
03-07-2013 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1926 by NoNukes
03-06-2013 10:34 PM


Hi No,
NoNukes writes:
Surely 'the Federal Government' is not the answer to all those questions.
quote:
The National Guard was established as a federally funded reserve component of the nation's armed forces on 21 January 1903 with the Militia Act of 1903 under Title 10 and Title 32 of the US Code The National Defense Act of 1947 created the Air Force as a separate branch of the Armed Forces and concurrently created the Air National Guard as one of its reserve components, mirroring the Army's component structure.
The Militia Act of 1903 (32 Stat. 775), also known as the Dick Act, was initiated by United States Secretary of War Elihu Root. While some cite the passage date of HR 11654 as June 28, 1902, others state January 1903.
The National Guard is administered by the National Guard Bureau, which is a joint activity under the DoD. Source, Pub.L. 110-181: National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008
The National Guard Bureau also provides policies and requirements for training and funds for training for state Army National Guard and state Air National Guard units,[13] the allocation of federal funds to the Army National Guard and the Air National Guard,[13] as well as other administrative responsibilities prescribed under 10 U.S.C. 10503. The National Guard Bureau is headed by the Chief of the National Guard Bureau (CNGB), who is a four-star general[9][10] in the Army or Air Force and a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Source, 10 U.S.C. 10501 National Guard Bureau
Source Source
My 4 questions.
1. When was the NATIONAL Guard formed?
2. By whom was the NATIONAL Guard formed?
3. By whom is the NATIONAL Guard paid?
4. Who controls the NATIONAL Guard?
Answer to #1, The National Guard was established as a federally funded reserve component of the nation's armed forces on 21 January 1903 with the Militia Act of 1903 under Title 10 and Title 32 of the US Code.
Answer to #2, The National Guard was established as a federally funded reserve component of the nation's armed forces on 21 January 1903 with the Militia Act of 1903 under Title 10 and Title 32 of the US Code.
While some cite the passage date of HR 11654 as June 28, 1902, others state January 1903.
Answer to #3, The National Guard was established as a federally funded reserve component of the nation's armed forces
Answer to #4, The National Guard is administered by the National Guard Bureau, which is a joint activity under the DoD.
Summary,
Question #1 can not be answered by Federal as it requires a date the Federal government formed the National Guard.
The National Guard was formed in 1903 by the federal government by the passage of HR 11654, as a federally funded reserve army under the Department of Defense and administered by the National Guard Bureau.
If you still think the National Guard was still a State controlled militia after 1903 all you have to do is read about what happened when the National Guard was called out by George Wallace to keep the college in Alabama from being intergrated. The President immediately mobilized the Guard into Federal service and the Guard members were threatened with court martial if they did not obey the Federal orders.
The National Guard is a Federally constituted army paid by the Federal government.
There are a very few States who have a State Militia today as most have been fooled into believing, as many on this site does that the National Guard is a State Militia. Just like the Militia's before the formation of the United States of America.
If you disagree present your argumentation.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1926 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2013 10:34 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1933 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 03-07-2013 1:03 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 1935 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2013 1:22 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1939 of 5179 (692787)
03-07-2013 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1933 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
03-07-2013 1:03 PM


Re: Militias could always be called to duty by the highest authority...
Hi Chicken,
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:
I have an argument because it appears that the militias were always intended to be called into service in times of need by the highest authority over the land they lived in.
And what does that have to do with who formed the National Guard in 1903? Or who pays the National Guard and who is in control of the National Guard?
Absolutely nothing.
Temep 12ft Chicken writes:
Now, my question is what is the difference between a militia (or National Guard)
The National Guard is a Federally funded and controlled Army reserve.
A Militia is all the armed people of a State that has the sole purpose of protecting the State in which that person resides.
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:
Now, as I answered your question, perhaps you could answer one Faith refused to answer. Against the military might of an invading army or an act of tyranny by the United States government utilizing the military, what could you do in defense with a 30 round magazine that you could not do with a 10 round magazine?
With the problems we are going to face as soon as China, Japan and other governments quit buying our bonds I would have a much better chance of surviving to see the army arrive if I had 30 round magazines to deal with the mobs that will be trying to take what posessions I have.
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:
The extra 20 rounds buy our citizens no hope of mounting a defense against this sophisticated weaponry, and a 10 round magazine is sufficient for home defense and hunting. So, please, what purpose does the 30 round magazine posibly serve? Faith refused to answer this, so perhaps you can.
You just made the argument for me being able to keep and bear arms of all kinds including shoulder fired missiles and other exotic weapons.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1933 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 03-07-2013 1:03 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1940 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 03-07-2013 2:07 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1943 of 5179 (692826)
03-07-2013 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1940 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
03-07-2013 2:07 PM


Re: Militias could always be called to duty by the highest authority...
The Colonies were the highest authority prior to the formation of the Federal government. In fact they formed the United States (countries) and they reserved the rights to keep and bear arms. Nowhere in the Constitution is the type of arms that they reserved the right to keep and bear was limited in any way.
If you don't like it change the Constitution. The Federal government could be disolved with the same number of votes as it would take to amend the second amendment.
Hi Chicken,
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:
Nope, you simply read into my argument what you wanted to.
I read nothing into your argument. I am simply making my own, just because someone believes or rules that my rights to keep and bear arms can be infringed does not change the second amendment.
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:
And thirdly, if you want to defend your country from invasion, join the military again, then you have access to those weapons!
At 73 I don't think they would let me serve, although I could still do the job I was trained for.
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:
Well, sure the Federal Government pays them, but the Governor of each state is in control of them, unless the Federal Government interest trumps state interest...exactly the same as the revolutionary war militias.
Anything that the Guard does has to be cleared or ordered by the DoD.
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:
So, by limiting magazine capacity they are also limiting the number of magazines you may own? It is just forcing more reloading in the case of a mass murderer, so you can still have 30 rounds, they will be in three separate magazines. Did you think through this at all? I am pretty sure you have even stated how superior you are with firearms and how quickly you can reload a magazine, so you would not be impeded at all, but nice try.
So if 10 or less people are in the gang I will be OK. But if there is 20 and I wait until they get on my property before I begin shooting by the time my weapon was empty and it takes me 1 second to eject and reload and they are only 10 yards away, if they rush me while I am changing magazines I will kill maybe 1 more before they are upon me. But if I had a 30 round magazine by the time I killed or wounded 10 of them I don't think they would be rushing towards me but away from me.
So with a 30 round magazine I would still be alive but with a 10 round magazine I would probably be dead. That is unless my wife came out of the house with her weapon with a 30 round magazine in it.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1940 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 03-07-2013 2:07 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1944 by Rahvin, posted 03-07-2013 6:19 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 1948 by Theodoric, posted 03-07-2013 7:53 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1945 of 5179 (692828)
03-07-2013 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1937 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
03-07-2013 1:33 PM


Re: ...facts are the building blocks of a sane reality...
Hi Chicken,
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:
I have no argument with you that the murder rates have dropped overall, but there is simply no reason to believe this is from the institution of the death penalty,
I would say that the reason the murder rates have dropped overall in the last 11 years is because over 130 million citizens have armed themselves with weapons. In the first 4 years since Obama's election 67 million weapons were sold, which is a little more than was sold in the previous 7 years.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1937 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 03-07-2013 1:33 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1946 of 5179 (692829)
03-07-2013 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1944 by Rahvin
03-07-2013 6:19 PM


Re: Militias could always be called to duty by the highest authority...
Hi Rahvin,
Rahvin writes:
are roaming gangs of violent criminals numbering more than 20 individuals a problem where you live?
At the present they are satisfied with their slave women who prostitute their bodies for gang income along with the selling of drugs. They can go to the grocery store and buy anything they want, but what happens when there is no groceries on the shelf.
So I will ask you to explain to me what is going to happen when the bonds our government offers on the bond market for sale has no buyers?
That means that the government would have to cut spending by another 46% over what has been cut so far.
So what will get cut?
What happens when no SS checks, or government retirement checks, or wealfare checks, and no money deposited into the debit cards for food stamps are paid?
You say that could never happen.
If our government does not get the spending problem under control and get back to a balanced budget it will happen.
Homeland security is buying assault weapons and ammunition like they were going out of style. They are preparing for something big, so they expect something to happen soon.
So give it your best shot and explain to me what will happen when there is no money to buy food with.
I want to be prepared for what happens if the worst case scenario happens while all the time praying that it doesn't.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1944 by Rahvin, posted 03-07-2013 6:19 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1947 by Rahvin, posted 03-07-2013 7:36 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1949 of 5179 (692833)
03-07-2013 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1935 by NoNukes
03-07-2013 1:22 PM


Re: Old ground.
Hi No,
NoNukes writes:
And what about the twenty two states that have state defense forces that are cannot be called up by the federal government.
Can you name me 1 State that has a Militia that is composed of all men from 18 to 45 years old that meets twice a year for training?
That is what constitutes a State Militia.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1935 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2013 1:22 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1953 by Theodoric, posted 03-07-2013 8:51 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 1954 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2013 9:38 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1950 of 5179 (692834)
03-07-2013 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1947 by Rahvin
03-07-2013 7:36 PM


Re: Militias could always be called to duty by the highest authority...
Hi Rahvin,
Rahvin writes:
ICANT, the only way you could have better proved my point and descended farther into Crazy Town would be if you expressed the need for a contingency against an invasion from outer space.
Why didn't you explain to me what will happen when there is no money to buy food with?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1947 by Rahvin, posted 03-07-2013 7:36 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1957 by Rahvin, posted 03-08-2013 1:53 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1951 of 5179 (692835)
03-07-2013 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1948 by Theodoric
03-07-2013 7:53 PM


Re: Militias could always be called to duty by the highest authority...
Hi Theo,
Theodoric writes:
I thought you said you could change a magazine in .043 seconds or something like that.
It takes 1 second to change a magazine.
Theodoric writes:
Your earlier argument was that banning high capacity magazines was stupid because you could change them so quickly. Now you need 30 rounds because you can't change them quickly?
If I am firing at you with my 30.06 you will be past 100 yards from me and at that distance it makes no difference how fast you can run. I can reload and fire before you cover 15 yards.
But if you are marching down my street I am not going to shoot you just because you are on my street. But when you come across the sidewalk you are within 10 yards or 30 feet from my front door. That makes a lot of difference in how much amunition I might need.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1948 by Theodoric, posted 03-07-2013 7:53 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1952 by Theodoric, posted 03-07-2013 8:18 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 1956 by Theodoric, posted 03-07-2013 10:45 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 1958 by GDR, posted 03-08-2013 2:38 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1961 of 5179 (692881)
03-08-2013 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1953 by Theodoric
03-07-2013 8:51 PM


Re: Old ground.
Hi Theo,
Theodoric writes:
You do realize laws have changed since 1792. Your definition does not come from the Constitution but from laws passed in 1792. One of those laws
And if you had read a couple of paragraphs down you would find that the 2 Militia Acts along with their 2 amendments were done away with in 1903.
quote:
They were replaced by the Militia Act of 1903, which established the United States National Guard as the chief body of organized military reserves in the United States.
You do realize the Militia Acts of 1792 were a pair of statutes enacted by the second United States Congress in 1792. They were not and never have been a part of the Constitution as well as the act of 1903.
But when the National Guard was formed all Militia's were replaced , leaving the States without Militia's.
Now can you name me one State that has a Militia that is composed of all men from 18 to 45 years old that meets twice a year for training?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1953 by Theodoric, posted 03-07-2013 8:51 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1962 by Theodoric, posted 03-08-2013 11:22 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1963 of 5179 (692885)
03-08-2013 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1954 by NoNukes
03-07-2013 9:38 PM


Re: Old ground.
Hi No,
NoNukes writes:
Can you name me 1 State that has a Militia that is composed of all men from 18 to 45 years old that meets twice a year for training?
That is what constitutes a State Militia.
Nonsense.
What is nonsense is that you keep telling me the National Guard is the State's Militia's, therefore the State's do not need a Militia. That is the same as the Fox guarding the hen house.
But if it is just nonsence you should be able to name at least 1 State that has a Militia that is composed of all the men 18 to 45 years old that meets twice a year for training. There are armed Citizens in several State's that meet many times each year for training. So Militia's do exist they just are not sanctioned by anyone other than the people which the government is supposed to be the servant of. You and others here seem to think the government is "of the goverment, by the government, and for the government. Which is not what the Constitution says. The government has no authority to do anything that the people do not allow them to do, according to the Constitution.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1954 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2013 9:38 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1964 by Taq, posted 03-08-2013 11:52 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 1965 by Theodoric, posted 03-08-2013 12:23 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1967 by NoNukes, posted 03-08-2013 12:41 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1966 of 5179 (692903)
03-08-2013 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1956 by Theodoric
03-07-2013 10:45 PM


Re: Militias could always be called to duty by the highest authority...
Hi Theo,
Theodoric writes:
What is the manufacturer and model of this rifle? How quickly can you fire a 30 round mag and stay on target?
My 30.06 is a 7400 Remington semi-automatic. The largest magazine that is available is a 10 round magazine. It takes a little longer to stay on target with (as it has some recoil) but I can part your hair at 300 yards with it. At around 500 yards you can get a 6" to 7" pattern. From here out I would use a Winchester 308 up to 1,000 yards. Past 1,000 yard I would use Barrett M82A1 .50 Cal which has a range of 8,530 feet (2,843 yards). Longest known kill was 3,120 yards. Which streaches out the published range.
With an AR15 at close range I can empty a 30 round Magazine as fast as I can pull the trigger, placing all rounds within a 8" diameter pattern. The AR15 has very little recoil.
Theodoric writes:
Bullshit. It takes that long just to chamber the first round.
I don't remember saying anything about the bullets only having a 1 second delay between them. I said it takes 1 second to change the magazine. If you have a quick release magazine and 1 in your left hand it will take 1 second if you practice enough. If you have to retreive the second magazine from a magazine belt it will take longer.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1956 by Theodoric, posted 03-07-2013 10:45 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1974 by Theodoric, posted 03-08-2013 1:20 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1968 of 5179 (692906)
03-08-2013 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1964 by Taq
03-08-2013 11:52 AM


Re: Old ground.
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
The states DO have a militia.
Then you should have no problem naming one State in which all men 18 to 45 years old are armed and gather to practice twice a year.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1964 by Taq, posted 03-08-2013 11:52 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1969 by Taq, posted 03-08-2013 12:51 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1970 by NoNukes, posted 03-08-2013 12:52 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1972 of 5179 (692912)
03-08-2013 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1962 by Theodoric
03-08-2013 11:22 AM


Re: Old ground.
Hi Theo,
Theodoric writes:
As you stated previously in this same post, this was replaced by the militia act of 1903. The definition you use is no longer legally valid.
Now you are beginning to get the picture. The Congress passed some acts and they were signed by the President making them laws on the books. But they did not change the Constitution.
Washington can make all the laws they want to make. Those laws do not change what is recorded in the Constitution.
Thus the Federal government did away with the State Militia's and formed the National Guard and then lied to the States telling them they had authority over the National Guard.
The problem with that is the Department of Defense has to OK anything the National Guard does.
Therefore the National Guard is a Federal army and can not be a State Militia. If they were not a Federal army they could not be uses beyond the shores of the United States.
Theodoric writes:
Your definition is not in the Constitution so what is your point?
My definition preceeds the Constitution, and was not done away with in the Constitution. In fact as NoNukes likes to point out there was provisions where the President could use the State Militia's if our country was being invaded.
If the National Guard was a State Militia Arizona could call up the National Guard and put them on the border with orders to kill anyone who tried to cross the border as Arizona is being invaded by another country.
The Constitution reserves the right to the States to go to war if being invaded and the Federal government will not take care of the problem.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1962 by Theodoric, posted 03-08-2013 11:22 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1973 by Taq, posted 03-08-2013 1:07 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 1978 by NoNukes, posted 03-08-2013 3:44 PM ICANT has replied

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