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Author | Topic: Gun Control Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Just heard an interview on Worldview Weekend with Larry Pratt of Gun Owners of America mostly about his being interviewed by Piers Morgan who went ballistic over Pratt's pro gun position, but in the interview it was mentioned that applications for concealed-carry gun permits are up, which I'm glad to hear. Pratt also said that the interview with Morgan brought his website a huge number of new registrations. Also glad to hear that.
Pratt also made the argument that having a few teachers with concealed carry permits is a better solution to the problem than having a security guard who would become a target, and I agree. That's better than nothing but armed teachers is the best. The surprise factor, a potential shooter not knowing who has a gun, can have a strong deterrent effect for starters. Mall shops should also have armed personnel, so should any business for that matter. We have the Second Amendment for this purpose, to defend ourselves, it's long past time we started putting it to the use for which it was intended. I'd been wanting to mention Israel for some time because of the presence of armed people all over the place there, and today a friend emailed me a picture demonstrating just that. I posted it at one of my blogs. Israel has an obvious problem with terrorists, but it's beginning to look like we have a similar problem here from a different source. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The fact is they do NOT want to get killed by someone else before they've been able to do some killing themselves. They ARE afraid of the guns that could be against them. But whether they are or not the good guys need them for self defense.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Hello RAZD,
Hope you're doing well these days. Clearly that was not the case with these killers who chose gun-free zones for their murder spree. Or at least they wanted to kill as many as possible first. I think gun owners should be very well trained so that if possible one of these crazy guys could be shot in a way so as not to kill him. Maybe that's not possible with someone that heavily armored and armed, but it would be ideal if possible.
I think this picture says it all. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The problem, or at least A problem, with your reasoning about statistics, is that unlike vaccination which is a one-time event that either does or doesn't do the damage the parent fears, giving up your gun leaves you open to all kind of unknowns including, yes, the possibility of government tyranny, even perhaps being thrown into a concentration camp without any means to defend yourself or your family at all. The Jews of Germany were certainly not expecting that. As well of course of the likelihood of criminal attacks both on your own home and in public and in the schools and all the rest of it, which do seem to increase where there is the least gun control and would certainly do so if guns were completely taken away from the good guys.
The vaccination is over and done with, but losing your gun can have future consequences beyond anything you can foresee. The Second Amendment has an important history that you seem to want to ignore, forged out of painful experiences with tyrannical kings. We ought to know just from the history of our own time that there are people who want to rule the world at any cost, who have made the effort within the last century, so that we'd be crazy to think it couldn't still happen even to us. I don't really trust the statistics anyone has given here, but even if I believed that the correlation you are talking about actually exists, I know the right to gun ownership is not comparable to the example you give of vaccination but has repercussions you aren't taking into account. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I have been trying for what must be more than half an hour to get the blog post to load that Coyote linked to. Apparently too big for my computer. I can't even copy it without getting all the graphics along with it.
Would somebody please email it to me as an attachment, just the post itself, so I can open it in Word. Thanks. Or if there is some other solution, like posting it all here, that would be fine too. http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/...-opinion-on-gun-control wallsong2003@yahoo.com Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Thank you, I got it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What I was trying to get at that you dismissed as the usual problem with analogies, is that when you take guns away from the good guys the situation changes and can drastically change, so you can't reasonably compare the various fears you mentioned. Just because the statistics seem to favor an unarmed citizenry in places that have gun bans, and this is questionable, nevertheless the people are now much more vulnerable to both crime and the kinds of tyranny gun rights are meant to protect us from. And it's naive to think it can't happen to us now.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
If I were you I'd call the police, not to complain but just to ASK if what the guy is doing is legal or sounds suspicious to them. If they don't know about him they might want to.
What you are describing does not sound like your typical American gun owner to me. He sounds like he might be seriously paranoid, and that can be dangerous. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Hi Crash, thanks for the info about Lynx.
I have to say that I disagree with you about armed teachers, though. I do think teachers should be armed, and that blog post Coyote linked to that I had so much trouble loading gets into all that very persuasively in my opinion. It's near the top of the article so easy enough to find. It's hard to single out a particular paragraph to copy here. Only teachers who WANT to be armed, of course, who volunteer to get the training and the licensing. I still think that picture of the rifle-toting Israeli teacher says it all, only here I think it should be concealed-carry, and only a few volunteers would be plenty. Again, Larry Correia who wrote that blog makes the case very well, and he describes his own extensive experience that qualifies him probably better than anyone here to give an opinion, including owning a gun store that sold to the police and being an instructor for concealed carry permits, which he did for free for teachers in the state of Utah. He knows about the laws that regulate guns and he interprets the statistics in a way that makes sense to me finally. In fact he knows more than anybody else I've read on this subject. I've already passed his blog around and recommend it to everybody here as well. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I think under almost every possible circumstance it's a bad idea to have someone carrying a firearm in a room with children But I think that's one of those notions people have who imagine things happening that don't actually happen in reality. Concealed weapons are generally worn under clothing, there's no reason for anyone to know they're there. If the training is good they should have all the safety measures down pat. From what I've read and heard from people I know who are really into guns (which I'm not though my father and brothers had guns so I'm not unfamiliar with them), and most particularly the author of that blog post (which I'll link again in case you might finally want to read it), this is really the best solution. He has instructed thousands of teachers in concealed-carry, among them teachers in Utah who have been armed for years already. And here's that picture again i think says so much, a Mom or a teacher toting a rifle in Israel in the presence of school children. That ought to show that it's not dangerous to have firearms around children. You just have to know what you're doing.
Picture worth a thousand words Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
May I recommend the blog post I keep linking that Coyote originally posted, because one thing he discusses is statistics that don't actually become statistics, such as thwarted criminal acts that don't get recorded because no crime actually got committed and no gun was actually discharged, although the gun in the hands of a potential victim was the reason for the aborted crime.
Here, I'll quote him:
It doesn’t really make sense to ban guns, because in reality what that means is that you are actually banning effective self-defense. Despite the constant hammering by a news media with an agenda, guns are used in America far more to stop crime than to cause crime. I’ve seen several different sets of numbers about how many times guns are used in self-defense every year. The problem with keeping track of this stat is that the vast majority of the time when a gun is produced in a legal self-defense situation no shots are fired. The mere presence of the gun is enough to cause the criminal to stop. Clint Smith once said if you look like food, you will be eaten. Criminals are looking for prey. They are looking for easy victims. If they wanted to work hard for a living they’d get a job. So when you pull a gun, you are no longer prey, you are work, so they are going to go find somebody else to pick on. So many defensive gun uses never get tracked as such. From personal experience, I have pulled a gun exactly one time in my entire life. I was legally justified and the bad guy stopped, put his gun away, and left. (15 years later the same son of a bitch would end up murdering a local sheriff’s deputy). My defensive gun use was never recorded anywhere as far as I know. My wife has pulled a gun twice in her life. Once on somebody who was acting very rapey who suddenly found a better place to be when she stuck a Ruger in his face, and again many years later on a German Shepherd which was attacking my one year old son. (amazingly enough a dog can recognize a 9mm coming out of a fanny pack and run for its life, go figure) No police report at all on the second one, and I don’t believe the first one ever turned up as any sort of defensive use statistic, all because no shots were fired. So how often are guns actually used in self-defense in America? http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html On the high side the estimate runs around 2.5 million defensive gun uses a year, which dwarfs our approximately 16,000 homicides in any recent year, only 10k of which are with guns. FastStats - HomicideOf those with guns, only a couple hundred are with rifles. So basically, the guns that the anti-gunners are the most spun up about only account for a tiny fraction of all our murders. But let’s not go with the high estimate. Let’s go with some smaller ones instead. Let’s use the far more conservative 800,000 number which is arrived at in multiple studies. That still dwarfs the number of illegal shootings. Heck, let’s even run with the number once put out by the people who want to ban guns, the Brady Center, which was still around 108,000, which still is an awesome ratio of good vs. bad. So even if you use the worst number provided by people who are just as biased as me but in the opposite direction, gun use is a huge net positive. Or to put it another way, the Brady Center hates guns so much that they are totally cool with the population of a decent sized city getting raped and murdered every year as collateral damage in order to get what they want. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I was making one simple point about the teacher with the gun in Israel: it isn't dangerous or ridiculous for teachers to have firearms around children. And of course I know Israel's situation, duh.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Let me guess that you didn't bother to read any of the article beyond the quote I gave. The only drivel here is yours, as usual.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
To your eyes it looks safe and normal to have a kindergarden class teacher with a rifle strung across her shoulder as an everyday, natural thing? You know, like it's a story book she's carrying. Are you actually insane? Or just a troll? This has to be a Poe, no-one is this mad. I'm happy to say I'm far from alone in this view of the situation. it's shared by a huge number of very sane Americans. Did I say it looks normal to me? No, it merely looks sensible under the circumstances, and yes, safe, and the main point was that it contradicts all the hysterics about the dangers of guns around children in the hands of people who want to protect them. Under OUR circumstances, therefore, having a few concealed-carry permits among the teaching staff of our schools looks to me to be sensible and possible. Scream and call me names all you want, you UK people don't have the slightest perspective on the American situation anyway. You'd think King George had in mind attacking us again you're so eager to see us disarmed. I heard something the other day that says it for my side, though I'd have to find it again to quote it right. But here's the gist: We don't want guns because we love guns or want to do harm to anyone or love the idea of a gun-toting nation, we want guns because we know there are evil people in this world and they WILL have guns no matter what you do with ours. There ARE evil people in this world. And it isn't us. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What you mean is we need more armed white citizens. No one wants to put more gun in the hands of people in black neighborhoods or hispanic neighborhoods where the crime rate is ridiculously high. Where they already have lots of guns. Putting more guns in the hands of the "good ones" isn't going to make those neighborhoods better or safer. Those neighborhoods need less guns. That's a cheap shot, onifre, but you got me wondering, what ABOUT getting the good guys in those neighborhoods armed? I DO think that could very well cut down on the crime which usually victimizes people in the same neighborhood. Larry Correia gave concealed-carry instruction for free to thousands of teachers, seems to me he or others could do the same for the people in those neighborhoods who are victimized by the bad guys.He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
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