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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Panda
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 403 of 5179 (684642)
12-18-2012 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 397 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 9:17 AM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Crashfrog writes:
You act like that makes it ok.
It does.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 9:17 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 9:59 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 439 of 5179 (684693)
12-18-2012 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 9:59 AM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Crashfrog writes:
Look, Panda, I get it; you're as proud of your country as I am of mine.
A baseless claim for your first sentence.
Not a good start.
Crashfrog writes:
Maybe your conviction that I'm irrationally ignoring evidence out of nationalistic fervor - and let's be honest, that's what you believe
If you being honest is you saying something that is untrue, then your need to try harder.
Anyway...
Crashfrog writes:
Panda writes:
It does.
*blatantly unable to show why it doesn't*
Australia banned guns and gun deaths went down dramatically.
You have not shown otherwise.
Do you think that a gun ban would produce an instant reduction?
I think it would take several years at least.
How long do you think it should take?
(I realise that you have a history of not answering questions - but repeatedly asking them makes that more obvious to others.)
...and still no link to a burglar being paid compensation. I'll add that to the list of your baseless claims.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 9:59 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:13 PM Panda has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 471 of 5179 (684728)
12-18-2012 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 12:57 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
Crashfrog writes:
But was society improved as a result? Did people use less drugs, or did they try harder to get drugs?
Well, we know from Australia that society was improved by banning guns and people didn't try harder to get guns.
Your analogy is proved wrong by reality.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 12:57 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:51 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 479 of 5179 (684736)
12-18-2012 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 1:51 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
Crashfrog writes:
But it wasn't. Conditions in Australia improved at exactly the same rate they were already improving. Homicides increased in the years that followed the gun ban. Crime rates in Australia continue to be almost twice as high as they are in the US.
But, as usual, you avoid the actual point of this thread: gun deaths were greatly reduced.
Gun deaths. Not car deaths. Not drug deaths. Not crime rates. Not homicides.
GUN deaths (or firearm homicides and firearm suicides if that helps you).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...n-control-work-in-australia
quote:
...Australia’s gun control regime, first passed in 1996 in response to a massacre in Tasmania that left 35 dead. The law banned semiautomatic and automatic rifles and shotguns. It also instituted a mandatory buy-back program for newly banned weapons.
quote:
So what have the Australian laws actually done for homicide and suicide rates? Howard cites a study by Andrew Leigh of Australian National University and Christine Neill of Wilfrid Laurier University finding that the firearm homicide rate fell by 59 percent, and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65 percent, in the decade after the law was introduced, without a parallel increase in non-firearm homicides and suicides. That provides strong circumstantial evidence for the law’s effectiveness.
People that know what they are talking about disagree with you.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:51 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 2:02 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 480 of 5179 (684737)
12-18-2012 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 478 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 1:55 PM


Re: post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy
Crashfrog writes:
You mean like "we banned guns, and then murders were lower after that"?
I don't recognize this text from anyone else's post, but you attribute it to someone. Can you show me where they made this remark?

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 1:55 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 2:03 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(3)
Message 488 of 5179 (684746)
12-18-2012 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 481 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 2:02 PM


Re: And so the pendulum swings again.
Crashfrog writes:
Who cares, though?
Clearly, not you.
Fuck those kids, right?
Crashfrog writes:
but if more people were murdered in aggregate
They weren't.
http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 2:02 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 504 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 3:54 PM Panda has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 490 of 5179 (684748)
12-18-2012 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 2:03 PM


Re: post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy
Crashfrog writes:
Panda writes:
I don't recognize this text from anyone else's post, but you attribute it to someone.
Who do I attribute it to? Be specific.
Oh, I see: no-one said it.
Strange that you think it is relevant then.
Carry on...

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 2:03 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 505 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 3:56 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 523 of 5179 (684807)
12-18-2012 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 505 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 3:56 PM


Re: post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy
Crashfrog writes:
There's a name for what that's called, but I don't seem to be allowed to tell you what it is. Perhaps you can use your imagination.
I'll let you work it out yourself.
Your greater experience of posting them makes you more more of an expert than I.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 3:56 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 525 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 5:30 PM Panda has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 527 of 5179 (684811)
12-18-2012 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 526 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 5:32 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Crashfrog writes:
The topic is whether gun control can reduce homicide.
Wrong.
Try again.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 5:32 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 529 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 5:39 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 540 of 5179 (684846)
12-18-2012 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 529 by crashfrog
12-18-2012 5:39 PM


Re: Hey you Brits: Your GUN Crime is UP, not down
Crashfrog writes:
...gun control has repeatedly been suggested to be responsible for an overall decrease in Australia's homicide rate.
Wrong.
Try again.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by crashfrog, posted 12-18-2012 5:39 PM crashfrog has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 542 of 5179 (684848)
12-18-2012 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by Jon
12-18-2012 10:44 PM


Re: Removal of Constitutional rights
Jon writes:
And the Patriot Act is not only unconstitutional, but immoral; it is also one of the great examples of why a citizen's right to bear arms is so importantto recoil against encroaching tyranny.
I agree that the Patriot Act (from the small amount about it I have read) is morally questionable at best.
But what effect has the ability to bear arms had on it?
(This is not rhetorical. I don't know the answer, and there was no mention of guns or arms on the Wiki page.)
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Jon, posted 12-18-2012 10:44 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by hooah212002, posted 12-18-2012 11:24 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 578 of 5179 (684980)
12-19-2012 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 566 by dronestar
12-19-2012 5:11 PM


Re: Solution to Problem
dronester writes:
Sorry, my words in this thread are more questions than debate.
They are good questions, though.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 566 by dronestar, posted 12-19-2012 5:11 PM dronestar has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 583 of 5179 (684998)
12-19-2012 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 564 by New Cat's Eye
12-19-2012 4:46 PM


A Review Of International And Some Domestic Evidence
CS writes:
I gotta go do some work in the lab and will be away from my desk for the rest of the day. I didn't get a chance to read this yet, but I wanted to throw it in here for future reference.
The document you linked has dubious content.
When you get time to read it, I doubt you will be impressed.
.
quote:
Since at least 1965, the false assertion that the United States has the industrialized world’s highest murder rate has been an artifact[sic] of politically motivated Soviet minimization designed to hide the true homicide rates.
Conspiracy much?
.
quote:
Since well before that date, the Soviet Union possessed extremely stringent gun controls3 that were effectuated by a police state apparatus providing stringent enforcement. So successful was that regime that few Russian civilians now have firearms and very few murders involve them.
The number of firearms held by civilians in Russia is ~12,750,000.
1 in 10 Russian civilians own a gun.
(I am unable to find out how many murders in Russia involved guns, despite a thorough search. It appears Russia does not publish those numbers.)
.
quote:
Armed crime, never a problem in England, has now become one. Handguns are banned but the Kingdom has millions of illegal firearms. Criminals have no trouble finding them and exhibit a new willingness to use them. In the decade after 1957, the use of guns in serious crime increased a hundredfold.
That is completely made up - it even argues against itself: the last sentence contradicts the first.
.
quote:
America remained very well armed yet homicide remained quite low for over two hundred years, from the earliest settlements through the entire colonial period and early years of the United States.
That is because killing blacks, chinese or native americans was not considered homicide.
Not that I believe that there are any statistics available - and the article provided none.
.
The amount of erroneous, flawed or baseless claims in your link is too much to be covered in one reply.
The document is nothing more than an 'opinion piece' disguised to look like a real research paper.
The authors' bias is showing.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 564 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-19-2012 4:46 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 617 of 5179 (685097)
12-20-2012 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 614 by Straggler
12-20-2012 1:13 PM


Re: These Yanks are Crazy.....
Straggler writes:
I have no idea where (or when) you got that video from but the idea that the UK populace are clamouring for guns or think that some sort of divine freedom has been diminished by their absence is complete nonsense.
Faith writes:
Did you WATCH the video? I found it on You Tube. Those ARE British people being interviewed, people who had their guns taken away from them back in 1997.
Perhaps I should link Faith the video of Americans commenting on how well Obama/Romney did in their 2nd live debate....1 day before the 2nd debate was due to happen.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by Straggler, posted 12-20-2012 1:13 PM Straggler has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3738 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 619 of 5179 (685100)
12-20-2012 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 618 by Faith
12-20-2012 2:10 PM


Re: These Yanks are Crazy.....
Faith writes:
And nobody so far has given statistics that show the CAUSE of the deaths in any of the cases, which is crucial information.
We had hoped that data about gun deaths and gun homicides would have successfully conveyed the cause of death.
But it seems to have been too difficult for you to work out.
Faith writes:
But I'm not for exchanging lower death rates for higher home invasions or other crimes anyway.
Yeah.
Property is more important than people's lives.
That is what Jesus teaches, yes?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Faith, posted 12-20-2012 2:10 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 620 by PsychMJC, posted 12-20-2012 2:24 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied

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