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Author Topic:   Have You Ever Read Ephesians?
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3846 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 222 of 383 (690994)
02-18-2013 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Jazzns
02-11-2013 12:12 PM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
My MAIN criticism is that Paul is being inconsistent with himself and in particular the values of the early church. In Acts, you see the beginnings of a totally egalitarian resistance movement. Property no longer belongs to the self, people of all kinds, sinners, poor, rich, sick, even Gentiles are all made equal. In Paul's own ministry, from his genuine epistles, is for the most part a pretty egalitarian dude. As you may have seen in my discussion with jaywill, Paul even talks about the issue of slaver to Philemon in a lot of eloquence, humility, and authority. What does he tell Philemon...he tells him that the Christian thing to do is to FREE his slave.
So, its not JUST that Paul in Ephesians fails to condemn slavery. Its that he fails to do so given the fact that he had in the past, in a most superior manner, consistent with the behavior of the early church. That, I think is one of the things that tips the scale to the side of this letter not being legitimate.
Your criticism of Paul for not being outspoken against slavery is merely a Poiticlly Correctness germane to our own present times in America.
The whole of the Middle Ages would have never passed for the Serfs who toiled in an Economic System of Distribution which was appropriate to their times as the only system possible.
We are spoiled today, and seeped in the American Slavery which was not necessary or even practical. We fought a War when we had only pass a Minimum Wage Law that included slaves.
Today, America pays grown men $6.00/hour which is really slavery, one subtly providing the bed and board available for a person with $280 week income from the only Job possible.
A great economist said the real minimum wage is zero, unemployment and no access to the market place which is the source of survival.
There have been times, and even now in India, or China, etc where one is a happy slave whose master has a fair and gainfuk use for him, while he, himslef is worthless in that regard otherwise.
I am certain Paul this as he grew older,...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Jazzns, posted 02-11-2013 12:12 PM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Richh, posted 02-20-2013 2:43 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3846 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 223 of 383 (690996)
02-18-2013 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Jazzns
02-18-2013 5:38 PM


Re: Paul is wise
but it certainly does take away from this notion that these books should be revered the way that they are by some people.
Nonsense.
Paul makes you think about these silly world views we have been forced fed.
Get real.
What people need think about in this very example is how proh-grammed they have become in Fat America, and how ignorant of what a hardship life can be even now on some places, and most certainly, in the past for almost all people living on some aristocrats land and welcoming the benefits of farming that land for 30% of the crops.
Americans believe that there is no slavery in the USA, but they still have not been able to make Black America self supporting, and have merely replaced the southern land owners with Welfare by and large.
I see 70% of Black America as slaves on break time, while we all chip in for the support they need to live. If the Romans had done this in Paul's time, absent Welfare, which they would have avoided, where and what would all those people do to eat and find shelter???
What Christianity and even the Old Testament did do was write a Constitution down for the first time, which explicitly listed how to treat a slave and how not to abuse them.
We still need to write more stuff along those lines today.
Obama's raise in the Min Wage is step one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Jazzns, posted 02-18-2013 5:38 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Jazzns, posted 02-18-2013 8:23 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3846 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 301 of 383 (692380)
03-02-2013 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Jazzns
02-11-2013 12:12 PM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
So, its not JUST that Paul in Ephesians fails to condemn slavery.
Its that he fails to do so given the fact that he had in the past, in a most superior manner, consistent with the behavior of the early church.
If I understand you this time better, you are saying that Paul explicitly condemned slavery in other epsitles, but you hold him to the fire based upon what he does NOT say about slavery in Ephesians.
WOW.
If that doesn't explain my point to you without spelling it out, more discussion willnly confuse you further.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Jazzns, posted 02-11-2013 12:12 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Jazzns, posted 03-04-2013 11:47 AM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3846 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 302 of 383 (692382)
03-02-2013 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Richh
02-20-2013 2:43 PM


Re: Either Paul is different, or he is immoral.
hope Jazzns is not offended if I do not consider you offensive. You bring out some of the exact points that I have mentioned in previous posts - that there are underlying issues and that these issues are still present today whether or not we have an institution of slavery.
Not that I don't condemn the slave trade and the practices of slavery in this country in the past. Kidnapping and inhumane treatment of fellow human beings is wrong at all times and in all places. But I think the same tendencies to racial discrimination and bias exist today that existed 150 years. I call that evil. The Bible calls it sin (and visa versa).
It is hard to maintain the balance between labor and 'management', between entitlement programs and a 'work ethic', and things like that.
You paraphrase what Paul actually said, while Jazzn has attacked Paul as inconsistent because he explicitly opposed the idea of slaves, but failed in Ephesians to re-state his view explicitly again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Richh, posted 02-20-2013 2:43 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Richh, posted 03-02-2013 7:21 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
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