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Author Topic:   Have You Ever Read Ephesians?
Eli
Member (Idle past 3512 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 335 of 383 (693015)
03-09-2013 3:13 PM


The doctrine of grace has no absolute biblical origin and has no reference whatsoever in the ministry of Jesus.
Not sure where the modern understanding of "G"race originates, but my guess is that it is some late invention meant to satisfy some bit of skepticism over some illogical aspect of Christianity to answer the problem of "none are good" while some are still acceptible.
Grace presents it's own problems since it negates election and invalidates the crucifixion. Among false doctrine, Grace is king.

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by jaywill, posted 03-09-2013 8:06 PM Eli has replied

  
Eli
Member (Idle past 3512 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 337 of 383 (693065)
03-10-2013 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by jaywill
03-09-2013 8:06 PM


Really? Below you say that grace presents problems to election. If you believe then that election is a doctrine that has "absolute biblical origin" how did you determine that ?
If you believe that election finds some reference in the ministry of Jesus, how did you determine that ?
Then I can apply your methodology and see whether grace has "absolute biblical origin" and/or reference in the ministry of Jesus.
So show us how you determined that election is a legitimate biblical doctrine with reference in the ministry of Jesus.
Matt 20:16
Matt 24:24
Luke 18:7
Mark 13:20
Jhn 15:16
I would like to know what you define here as "modern".
There is a different context between "grace" in biblical usage and the "Grace" that is fed to the masses by evangelicals.
Figure out what that difference is and then be intellectually honest and acknowledge that of course I was not referring to Peter as modern.
I don't really have an obligation to defend your strawman, do I?
Just because it presents some problems you have designated the concept as having no biblical origin ? Just because it presents some problems it has no reference in the ministry of Jesus ?
Not my claim. Again, I have no obligation to defend a position I never held. It has no reference in the ministry of Jesus because Jesus makes no reference to it. End of story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by jaywill, posted 03-09-2013 8:06 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by jaywill, posted 03-10-2013 11:27 PM Eli has replied

  
Eli
Member (Idle past 3512 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 339 of 383 (693109)
03-11-2013 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 338 by jaywill
03-10-2013 11:27 PM


You still aren't acknowledging that the biblical grace (favor, intrinsically connected with election and anchored to some disagreeable or insurmountible task) is something altogether different from the modern usage of the word, (delivered from the law, absolved of sin, justified, perfected through no cause of one's own, unable to initiate a saving act and thus free from the responsibility of attempting any such initiation) which Jesus not only did not express as part of his ministry, but actively opposed.
Grace is what people appeal to on Sunday to hand wave away the sin they've accumulated Monday through Saturday.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by jaywill, posted 03-10-2013 11:27 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by jaywill, posted 03-11-2013 7:14 AM Eli has replied
 Message 341 by Richh, posted 03-11-2013 11:50 AM Eli has seen this message but not replied
 Message 356 by Richh, posted 04-12-2013 9:36 AM Eli has not replied

  
Eli
Member (Idle past 3512 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 342 of 383 (693136)
03-11-2013 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by jaywill
03-11-2013 7:14 AM


My only concern was to demonstrate that the same methods of uncovering a teaching of election with biblical origin could apply to discerning God's grace as having biblical origin also.
My apologies, but you failed to do that. However, I understand you want to get back to leading the discussion in a certain aspect, so I'll leave you ro it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by jaywill, posted 03-11-2013 7:14 AM jaywill has not replied

  
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