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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 689 of 868 (859114)
07-28-2019 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 688 by jar
07-28-2019 10:53 AM


jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
jar writes:
So back to the question of "Who Made God" all of the evidence shows that Man made God.
Only because we choose to exalt our own reasoning and understanding of what we read over actually surrendering to Him. Of course you always ask how we can tell. Its what you likely have always asked yourself which may bwe why you refuse to surrender your intellect. you prefer sitting back and describing God as a character in a book. Just drink the kool aid, jar. it wont kill you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 688 by jar, posted 07-28-2019 10:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 690 by jar, posted 07-28-2019 3:39 PM Phat has replied
 Message 693 by Tangle, posted 07-29-2019 2:39 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 691 of 868 (859123)
07-28-2019 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 690 by jar
07-28-2019 3:39 PM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
jar writes:
We have no way to even surrender reasoning other then a conscious decision to simply not think and even that requires reasoning.
Stop and think. You yourself introduced the construct to me. A believer goes one step beyond the construct. A believer eliminates the word "IF". A believer decides to consciously trust that GOD if GOD exists desires a form of communion. Beyond drinking grape juice and munching on unsalted wafers. Beyond a symbolic ritual. You may cringe and say that this means parking your brain at the door, but I'm telling you that you wont have evidence that what you are stepping into is in any way rational, logical, or explainable. So yes...in a way you decide not to think, beyond choosing to trust that GOD exists and that He cares whether you choose to trust Him.(not the snake oil salesmen) I believe that because of your rational questioning mind you never bought into this dogma. You never trusted God(through Jesus) because of several reasons.
1) You were well read and saw that there were many gods in many books, cultures, and mythology.
2) You read the Bible and saw discrepancies from what was taught in popular apologetics, plus the fact that you helped build a house for a Pastor who then sold it from out under that church.
3) You (and others) likely saw and see no evidence that these others of us who are believers are in any way wiser, happier, or more enlightened than you currently are, so why take a plunge and abandon reason?
I can respect your logic. All I can say is that I really don't know what plan God has for you...apart from doing what you do, which I always joked was being the Apostle To The Atheists! :lol:
Stop just posting utter nonsense.
I will post what I believe and feel. You cannot expect to frame this discussion and steer me into your way of thinking. I know what you think and believe better than anyone else at EvC.
Its too bad we don't have chat anymore...I always liked real time discussion with you there.
In conclusion, Man may have made God, but Man never made GOD and Jesus lives eternally according to the Nicene Creed also. Will you never surrender your conscious intelligence and ego to GOD or do you imagine that "She" doesn't expect you to?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 690 by jar, posted 07-28-2019 3:39 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 692 by jar, posted 07-28-2019 5:19 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 694 of 868 (859138)
07-29-2019 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 692 by jar
07-28-2019 5:19 PM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
jar writes:
Yup, you decide not to think.
Lets go there.
The Apologists say that all have fallen, or are incapable of being selfless and altruistic as a society. They point to the numerous wars, atrocities, and even now the competitive nature of some nations who feel they have a manifest destiny to override others. Then you have racism. Tangle will no doubt argue that humans are getting better, but is this true? The support comes from a literal interpretation of the scriptures--as inspired by GOD. Granted I see how these writings can be used to support any point or belief, but I also have heard some good sermons that came directly out of scripture references and which just felt inspired and inspiring.
You will no doubt say that I should beware the snake oil salesmen, but I find your whole point about God lying to be even more atrocious. Nobody has ever been able to explain why a Creator of all seen and unseen with omnipotent power and omniscient knowledge would have any need to lie.
And then you go off on tangents that nobody else who has ever read the Bible concludes.(well, 95% of them)
Such as:
jar writes:
But according to the testimony found in the Bible,(the) Jesus character was not much different than any other human of the period; he had a temper, could be abrupt, self centered, unsure, remorseful, petulant, demanding, unreasonable and selfish.
Talk about embellishing!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 692 by jar, posted 07-28-2019 5:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 695 by jar, posted 07-29-2019 7:42 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 696 by ringo, posted 07-29-2019 12:21 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 697 of 868 (859161)
07-29-2019 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 696 by ringo
07-29-2019 12:21 PM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
I cant find where, unless you expect me to believe that the story was written as a fairy tale. I don't believe that. I sam talking about the actual philosophical idea of a Creator of all seen and unseen. The rationale is probable. The idea that such a character lies is nuts.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 696 by ringo, posted 07-29-2019 12:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 698 by ringo, posted 07-29-2019 12:59 PM Phat has replied
 Message 699 by jar, posted 07-29-2019 2:08 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 700 of 868 (859188)
07-29-2019 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by ringo
07-29-2019 12:59 PM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
Its not B.S. Its my opinion and belief and I have every right and rationale to state mine as you do yours. personally, I think you simply have a different mindframe. You expect people to have made up the books and the gods. You don't consider the idea of what the apologists say as in any way rational. Just because Christians behaving badly indicts the believers and satan seems to send the idiots to talk on the Atheist Experience and at EvC does not mean that all apologists or all believers are wrong. Personally, I believe that the educated secular humanist mindset is the ones who have bought into the lie, but its only a personal belief.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by ringo, posted 07-29-2019 12:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 702 by ringo, posted 07-29-2019 5:26 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 701 of 868 (859189)
07-29-2019 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 699 by jar
07-29-2019 2:08 PM


Re: All this is essential to the topic.
If you believe what you just said, how can you claim to be a believer? If the evidence in your mind says that Man made God, why even entertain the funky rituals? Why state that you are a member of an established club? Just to get the decoder ring??
Look, you and I have discussed this stuff for years. You guys try and tell me that I created the God I worship. But you never had the experiences I had, where I changed dramatically overnight and became aware of the presence. Or of the several unexplained events i have witnessed. Or of the times that prayer works.
I guess what frustrates me around this place is that no one respects my life experience. You seem to think I would have done better steering clear of religion, getting an education, and having a humanist hope for the future of humanity as you do.
But I'm no dummy. I am as smart as many of you, and I do my homework carefully. The only real difference between us is that I am a believer (with experiences which led to that conclusion) and you people by and large are not.
And as for you, jar---the difference between us is that I don't lump all of the cultural "gods" into the same category. It is true that I cannot explain how knowing Jesus or knowing the Holy Spirit is even possible, but I'm working on it---if it ever is possible. I'm not sure why it is I want to win these foolish arguments....I should just let God deal with you all and show you His reality Himself. But keep trying to get me to think wiser. It does help sometimes.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 699 by jar, posted 07-29-2019 2:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 703 by jar, posted 07-29-2019 5:38 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 704 of 868 (859242)
07-30-2019 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 703 by jar
07-29-2019 5:38 PM


Re: All this is essential to the topic.
jar writes:
It is not the evidence of my mind but rather the very factual evidence of what has been written in the various Holy Books; the Book of the Dead; the Vedas; the Quran & Hadath; the Sutras; the Tanach, Mishnah, Talmud and Midrash; the Bible; the works of Mencius & Confucius; the Greek & Roman theologies; the Norse theologies; Raven & Coyote...
Do not all of those include Gods or Moral Pathways? Is not Theos the study of God regardless of which God is the subject?
You dont get it. A believer is a beliver in one GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen, whose Son Jesus Christ brought Holy Communion to humanity. The other gods you mention are cultural constructs...mythos....inventions of cultures of various times and places. There is but One God. If you claim to be a believer you have to believe in that. Not in cultural relativism.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by jar, posted 07-29-2019 5:38 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 709 by ringo, posted 07-30-2019 12:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 705 of 868 (859243)
07-30-2019 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 703 by jar
07-29-2019 5:38 PM


Re: All this is essential to the topic.
jar writes:
Don't I have to ask you repeatedly "How do you know" and "What is the test you use" and still get no answers?
I've given several attempts at an answer. This is a question you need to be asking yourself. How do you know? And if you don't, you end up with cultural relativism and teaching the stuff that you teach where God is reduced to a character in a book. That's not (the character of) a believer. Thats a man who embraces logic, reason, and reality but who has never met God. Because he doesn't know or see how this is possible.
Quit asking others how they know that its possible. The question is if it is possible for *you* to do. Perhaps you will be honest and say that there is no way you will surrender logic, reason, and reality for a fantasy. My point is that for me at least, it is no fantasy. Critics would say that unless that is true for everyone, it is simply my belief and my belief alone. Sad.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by jar, posted 07-29-2019 5:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 706 by jar, posted 07-30-2019 8:56 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 708 by Stile, posted 07-30-2019 10:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 714 of 868 (859608)
08-02-2019 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by ramoss
01-20-2013 12:05 PM


Re: Should God be slanged or kept to oneself?
ramoss writes:
Now. you can have what ever belief you want. When it comes to others, it is 'can you show that your belief is true' is the question. What can you show me ??? How can you provide what you believe to be true without what is known as 'confirmation bias'? Can you find a way to take testimony of people away, and show that your belief is more than "warm fuzzy feelings"?
Probably not, but I will think about how I would apply such a logic challenge.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ramoss, posted 01-20-2013 12:05 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 716 of 868 (859789)
08-03-2019 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 715 by jar
08-02-2019 8:13 AM


which leads to the question regarding whether the Nicene Creed should be given more authoritative weight than the Bible.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 715 by jar, posted 08-02-2019 8:13 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 717 by jar, posted 08-03-2019 8:51 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 718 of 868 (859816)
08-03-2019 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 717 by jar
08-03-2019 8:51 AM


So in essence you belong to a club that sings songs and celebrates characters in a book? Belief in GOD is not required? Or more precisely not clearly understood...centuries after the BCP was written? I think people are regressing. Soon they will believe that God is simply a human concept. You can call it a Christian Club but if it devolves any further it will simply be a humanist club of do-gooders dressed up with ceremonial religious garb.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 717 by jar, posted 08-03-2019 8:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 719 by jar, posted 08-03-2019 1:00 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 720 by ringo, posted 08-03-2019 1:03 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 721 of 868 (859821)
08-03-2019 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 720 by ringo
08-03-2019 1:03 PM


Is God Even Necessary?
Speaking from your POV, the Episcopalians have a shot at escaping the cultural dogma. My ongoing question, (which would make a good topic) is this: Is God even necessary? Stile claims He isnt. I maintain that He is, for I need His Spirit to counter my natural tendencies towards greed, pride, and selfishness.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 720 by ringo, posted 08-03-2019 1:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 722 by ringo, posted 08-03-2019 1:20 PM Phat has replied
 Message 723 by AZPaul3, posted 08-03-2019 1:37 PM Phat has replied
 Message 729 by jar, posted 08-03-2019 2:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 724 of 868 (859830)
08-03-2019 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 722 by ringo
08-03-2019 1:20 PM


Re: Is God Even Necessary?
So you are telling me that you don't have issues with greed, pride, lust, or substance abuse? You claim to willingly slang about spare change but is it truly to help others or does it buy friends...drinking buddies even...who might lend a helping hand to you at a later date? If so, do you have any problem with humans acting humanly? Fine so far. Now lets bring religion into it.
Do you have a problem with those professing organized religion in Saskatchewan? If so, tell us the stories. Where do they fall short in ways that you secular humanists do not?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 722 by ringo, posted 08-03-2019 1:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 730 by ringo, posted 08-03-2019 4:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 725 of 868 (859831)
08-03-2019 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 723 by AZPaul3
08-03-2019 1:37 PM


Re: Is God Even Necessary?
AZPaul3 writes:
Most of the rest of us will just be normal human beings trying to get by without hurting others while sharing some good times along the way.
What makes you think I differ from that? That's basically what I do. I dont "preach" to anyone except informally as Thugpreacha Online...and that's just to vent.
One thing we atheists and believers do to each other is stereotype each other.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 723 by AZPaul3, posted 08-03-2019 1:37 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 726 by AZPaul3, posted 08-03-2019 1:55 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 727 of 868 (859834)
08-03-2019 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 726 by AZPaul3
08-03-2019 1:55 PM


Re: Is God Even Necessary?
I can accept your point of view. It is, after all, based on known evidence. And in the other thread you mention all of the negatives associated with belief and with a hypothetical Creator Itself, should One exist. But how do you know that human perception may not be altered? I suppose the next question will be to demand evidence.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 726 by AZPaul3, posted 08-03-2019 1:55 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 728 by AZPaul3, posted 08-03-2019 2:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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