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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 406 of 417 (849482)
03-11-2019 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by Stile
03-11-2019 3:30 PM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
Phat writes:

The function of such a God would be (from our standpoint) as a conscience and highest noble character...the things we "should" do rather than the things we instinctually do.


We already have that function built in, as a result of our evolution as a social species. We don't need an external entity to motivate it, much less one that hides.

ABE: Should be a response to Message 403.

Edited by ringo, : No reason given.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Stile, posted 03-11-2019 3:30 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 3:43 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 407 of 417 (849483)
03-11-2019 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by ringo
03-11-2019 3:40 PM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
perhaps if "God" attributed posts to the proper authors, He would be less likely hiding. But I get your point. You always make God the absolute last default option. Christianity must have scarred you somehow.

As to whether humans need God or not, the evidence will be if we are still trying to make Him up 500 years from now.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 3:40 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 3:55 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 408 of 417 (849485)
03-11-2019 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Phat
03-11-2019 3:43 PM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
Phat writes:

perhaps if "God" attributed posts to the proper authors, He would be less likely hiding.


Perhaps the supposed "communion" with God is just a bad link.

Phat writes:

You always make God the absolute last default option.


Not at all. Of course, all of the REAL options come before unevidenced ones - and YOUR God isn't even close to the top of the list of plausible gods.

Phat writes:

As to whether humans need God or not, the evidence will be if we are still trying to make Him up 500 years from now.


Some of us might be. I predict that 500 years from now some of us will still be smoking too.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 3:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 4:12 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 409 of 417 (849490)
03-11-2019 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by ringo
03-11-2019 3:55 PM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
I predict that 500 years from now some of us will still be smoking too.
Which means that doing all the right things that are good for us, as well as obeying any commandments is just a pipe dream.

You likely would have let satan hang out in heaven were you in charge rather than booting him out.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 3:55 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 4:19 PM Phat has responded
 Message 411 by dwise1, posted 03-11-2019 6:03 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 410 of 417 (849492)
03-11-2019 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by Phat
03-11-2019 4:12 PM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
Phat writes:

Which means that doing all the right things that are good for us, as well as obeying any commandments is just a pipe dream.


Doing the right things in the commandments is doing the right thing for our society and our species. Doing the wrong things for ourselves is a separate issue.

Phat writes:

You likely would have let satan hang out in heaven were you in charge rather than booting him out.


There is no Satan. He never was anything but a metaphor for our own imperfections - i.e. God's screw-up.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 4:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by Phat, posted 03-13-2019 8:10 PM ringo has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3309
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 411 of 417 (849497)
03-11-2019 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by Phat
03-11-2019 4:12 PM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
Which means that doing all the right things that are good for us, as well as obeying any commandments is just a pipe dream.

Let's see:


"Where do you get your morals?"
"What's stopping you from going on a crime spree right now?"
"Aren't you afraid of hell?"

Bingo! (Message 938)

Morality comes from human society, not from religion. Religion incorporates morality into its teachings and then takes the credit (copyright infringement!). Many of the commandments in the Bible are downright immoral, so believers conveniently ignore them (unless they prove useful against a group that they hate, since God always hates the same groups that they do) while only noticing the ones that are moral, but giving their Bible credit for being completely moral.

We do the right things because they are the right things. It's like denouncing Nazis and those who support Nazis. Why is that so hard to do?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 4:12 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3393
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 412 of 417 (849504)
03-12-2019 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 405 by Phat
03-11-2019 3:38 PM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
Phat writes:

I mean like how fundamentalists think. They will say that the bedrock of their faith is belief. (Faith said that a lot. She would believe before anything else.) The book is used, as is God, to justify the belief. And the belief is used to justify God.

In and of itself - I don't have an issue with such an idea.

Belief can be powerful.
But that power can be good or bad.

Use that belief to give yourself motivation for positive things? (Helping others, living healthy, being part of your community...)
-Sounds great!

Use that belief to give yourself motivation for negative things? (Hurting others, living selfishly, claiming/lying about a 'search for truth about reality...')
-Sounds terrible!

All successful, serious pursuits I know of have very strict, constraining rules and regulations to ensure you're doing "positive" things.
-Science, governments, charities...
-If the rules are followed (cough, cough... looking at you, "governments...") then things prosper
-If the rules are bent/broken/disrespected... then things go terribly sour

Morality (and in some cases "religion") require the same guides/restrictions.
Without those, it's easy to fall into (sometimes accidentally) the problem of using the power of belief - but heading in a terrible, negative direction (like Faith does.)

You should be able to list your rules, and defend them against criticism of "being bad rules."
If you can't do that:
-maybe you don't understand your own beliefs (in which case, you're in danger of unknowingly falling down the negative, terrible path)
-maybe you don't want to understand your own beliefs (in which case, you're likely biased in the negative, terrible direction and trying to justify/hide it from yourself)

Phat writes:

Stile writes:

I think it would be much better if anyone trying to "use God as their answer as to why they justify themselves" in this sense would stop and try to "justify love" or any of the other examples I gave. Might make for a much less selfish population.


Perhaps this explains the mutation that humans who profess to be believers have that makes them often behave worse than unbelievers.

I wouldn't say this is a problem "for believers."
I would say that anyone doing anything that comes down to "...as to why they justify themselves" is a selfish problem.
A selfish problem that indicates with high confidence that one, indeed, is heading down the negative, terrible path.

The fact that some use "God" to do this is more human nature (and many humans happen to believe in God) rather than an issue with God.

It just goes to show that "beliefs about God" need to be under strict rules and regulations as well - ones you can define (understand) and defend (know that they are leading towards a positive direction.)

I would claim that to justify love is, in fact, justifying God.

On certain levels - I would absolutely agree with you.

On other levels (such as: "using God as an answer in order justify yourself") - I would absolutely refute you.
"Love" cannot be used to "justify yourself" in any way. That's just twisting words - like saying "this square has 5 sides!" It's just twisting words, and is simply wrong. That's not what a square is. And that's not what love is.

If you're thought is "well - that's how I think of God - therefore, using God to justify yourself is wrong as well!"
-This is a good start
-This should be, as previously mentioned, one of the strict "rules and regulations" used to govern thoughts/beliefs about God.
-Just remember to keep it in mind and apply it to ALL thoughts/beliefs about God
-Also understand that many others do not use such a rule, therefore - be doubly-on-your-guard (remember your defined and defended rules) when anyone else talks about "God" and make sure their thoughts/beliefs align with the rule as well - otherwise THEY are using the word "God" in a word-twisting way, just as "using God in order to justify yourself" twists the word "God" if "God" is equivalent to "love."

I used your quote in a reply to RAZD

No problem, you attributed your quote and that's all you need to do.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Phat, posted 03-11-2019 3:38 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Phat, posted 03-13-2019 8:21 PM Stile has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 413 of 417 (849542)
03-13-2019 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by ringo
03-11-2019 4:19 PM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
There is no Satan. He never was anything but a metaphor for our own imperfections - i.e. God's screw-up.
ok so lets run with that. IF we are responsible for our own actions, booting satan out of Heaven is a metaphor for not allowing compromise in our behavior. You claim people will still smoke 200 years from now, which is likely true. People will allow darkness and light to co-exist in their minds. The message always told us to choose this day whom we would serve. It offered us cigarettes and Salad. Blessing and cursing. It never suggested that we should allow both.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by ringo, posted 03-11-2019 4:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by ringo, posted 03-14-2019 11:42 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12164
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 414 of 417 (849543)
03-13-2019 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by Stile
03-12-2019 8:34 AM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
stile writes:

Use that belief to give yourself motivation for(...)claiming/lying about a 'search for truth about reality.

Im not sure I understand. Can you elaborate on this point?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Stile, posted 03-12-2019 8:34 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by Stile, posted 03-15-2019 8:54 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Mike Holland
Member
Posts: 168
From: Sydney, NSW,Auistralia
Joined: 08-30-2002


Message 415 of 417 (849552)
03-14-2019 7:57 AM


Reply deleted. It was not relevant to the current direction of the discussion.

Edited by Mike Holland, : Not relevant.


    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 416 of 417 (849556)
03-14-2019 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 413 by Phat
03-13-2019 8:10 PM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
Phat writes:

IF we are responsible for our own actions, booting satan out of Heaven is a metaphor for not allowing compromise in our behavior.


Or... it's a scam by shamans to set themselves up as intermediaries on our behalf.

Phat writes:

The message always told us to choose this day whom we would serve. It offered us cigarettes and Salad. Blessing and cursing. It never suggested that we should allow both.


It never said it was a one-time irrevocable decision either. To use a very obvious cliché, life isn't always back and white.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by Phat, posted 03-13-2019 8:10 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3393
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 417 of 417 (849577)
03-15-2019 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by Phat
03-13-2019 8:21 PM


Re: Who Imagined Whom?
Phat writes:

Stile writes:

Use that belief to give yourself motivation for(...)claiming/lying about a 'search for truth about reality.


I'm not sure I understand. Can you elaborate on this point?

Start with any claim of reality based up on belief. For example, the idea of: "yes, there was a flood around 4000 years ago because I believe in God and the Bible."
-This is a claim on "the truth about reality"
-We have studied many, many approaches on how to identify "the truth about reality."
-It is overwhelmingly known that "...because I believe in God and the Bible" is a terrible way to identify truth about reality and has always, always turned out to be wrong. And never changes it's ideas when it's shown to be wrong. It gets stuck in "being wrong about reality."
-It is overwhelmingly known that testing/verifying ideas against reality (like Science) is our best-possible-so-far way to identify truth about reality, it is often wrong, but always leads in the right direction, and always moves closer to being right - discarding all ideas that are known to be wrong.

-Those that take their belief into a realm it is known to be terrible in ('searching for truth about reality') are headed down a negative, terrible path
-Best case result of this scenario is that the believer ends up with empty claims about reality
-Worst case result of this scenario is that the believer ends up supporting known-lies about reality - just to "defend" their belief
-This is a negative, terrible waste of spirituality and belief


This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Phat, posted 03-13-2019 8:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
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