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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 586 of 642 (856463)
07-01-2019 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 583 by AZPaul3
06-30-2019 7:23 PM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
Interesting and sobering! Your article(s) exposed the rotten core of extremist Christianity. I would claim that the fringe does not speak for the majority, but if I am honest with myself, I can see some of my own adopted beliefs within the fringe.
quote:
In Ken Stern’s book on the militias, A Force Upon the Plain, Toole explained how Identity recruitment works:

“At the front end, it’s picking up lots and lots of people by hitting on issues that have wide appeal, like gun control and environmental restrictions, which enrage many people here out West. Then you go a little bit further into the funnel, and it’s about ideology, about the oppressiveness of the federal government. Then, further in, you get into the belief systems. The conspiracy…Finally, at the narrow end of the funnel, you’ve drawn in the hard core, where you get someone like Tim McVey.”


Many of the Christians that I know would claim that the extremists do not represent real, true Christianity. I recall something that jar taught me a few years ago which stuck in my mind:
jar,in belief statement writes:

Recently the question was asked whether or not I consider Christianity to be evil and if I think Fundamentalists and Evangelical Christians are evil. For the record, I do not think Christianity is evil, nor do I think Fundamentalists and Evangelicals are evil.

As a Christian I think one of the first things needed is some personal honesty. That is, it seems to me, a basic tenet and requirement of the faith, the religion called Christianity. It is inherent in the confession. We are expected to honestly look at ourselves, our lives and our behavior and see where we have done wrong, where we have failed to do right, to acknowledge those failings and try to do better in the future.

When I was little I also believed, believed very strongly that Christians were good and everybody else was wrong.
As we grow and learn more we hopefully gain from the mistakes we made in the past.

We are the sum of our experiences.

I am also a Christian. As I see Christianity is both a set of teachings and also the body, the communion of Christians down through the ages. Some Christians were great, some evil, most simply forgotten. All though were Christian.

Later I learned more of the history of this thing, this communion called Christianity. What I learned was not always pleasant, much in fact was horrific. Very little was as simple or serene as what I had been taught.

What I learned was that down through the ages many horrific things were done in the name of Christianity and by Christians. Protestants oppressed Catholics, Catholics oppressed Protestants, and both oppressed every other religion. Down through the ages the Jew came in for special attention, being expelled from nearly every country and their property seized. Time after time it happened.

I learned about how the Native Americans were taken from their homes, given new names, had their hair cut, forbidden to speak their own language, sent to Christian Schools where they had to learn a new religion, how their old religion was mocked and forbidden.

I learned how the Codices and tablets were burned by the Padres that accompanied the Conquistadores, what happened in Hawaii, what happened throughout South and Central America.

I saw the white church members standing at the curbs shouting “Let the dogs loose” or “Turn on the hoses”, and saw the Christian Schools popping up like toadstools as the white Christian parents pulled their kids out of public school so they would not have to sit next to a monkey. I saw churches that had been bombed or burned out, bodies of people working for equal rights after they had been shot, sometimes mutilated.

I look around today and see other Christians shouting “God hates Fags” and voting time after time to ban same-sex marriages and claiming that Islam is barbaric.

Christianity must, IMHO, accept responsibility for the evil as well as the good done in its name.

In discussions at EvC and at other places, when the more horrific acts are brought up, one response I often hear is “They were not real Christians” or “That is not what Christ taught.” I disagree with the former, and agree with the later. I also think that using either as an excuse or as a way to shirk responsibility is dishonest. Granted it is not what Christ taught but it IS what Christians did, and in every case I examined, the people were honest, sincere and believed strongly that what they were doing was right and that it was the Christian thing to do. They were all sure that they were morally right.

The Missionary teacher that helped bring the poor savages to the Missionary School, who clothed the kids, cut their hair, gave them good Christian Names, taught them to read and maybe even write, taught them about GOD did so to save the kids souls.

The Padre that accompanied the Conquistadors and that burned the Codices did it for what they saw as the best of reasons, saving souls. This refrain has been repeated time after time and over issue after issue. It is only later, when we look back on the sermons written on how to civilize the savage, what the place of the Blackman in society is, on the terrible wrong we did in destroying cultures and beliefs that we realize how wrong we were.

If we are to avoid make such errors in the future, I believe we must honestly acknowledge what we have done in the past, that “but by the grace of GOD” those people could be us and that we too are capable of committing such horrific acts. If we try to claim that they were somehow different than us, that they were not real Christians, then I fear we are bound to continue down that path.

Sometimes i find myself agreeing with the old curmudgeon from Texas.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 583 by AZPaul3, posted 06-30-2019 7:23 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2019 3:56 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 587 of 642 (856464)
07-01-2019 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 586 by Thugpreacha
07-01-2019 3:20 AM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
Phat writes:

I would claim that the fringe does not speak for the majority,

But it's not a fringe. Evangelicals are a large part of the Christian movement yet they're tapping blind people on the shoulder telling them that they can be cured.

Catholics are an even bigger movement yet the institution is rotten to the core.

So what is this majority?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 586 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-01-2019 3:20 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 588 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-01-2019 6:41 AM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 588 of 642 (856465)
07-01-2019 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 587 by Tangle
07-01-2019 3:56 AM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
I listen to Evangelical Podcasts all night and have yet to hear any sermon promising blind people that they can see.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2019 3:56 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2019 7:25 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 589 of 642 (856466)
07-01-2019 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 588 by Thugpreacha
07-01-2019 6:41 AM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
It happens all the time here in London apparently - blind man was complaining about it on the radio only last week.

But the general question is where is this minority? When I last drove round the USA there were wacky churches and radio stations everywhere.

If you're spending all night listening to evangelical pod casts, no wonder your mind is fucked.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-01-2019 6:41 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 590 of 642 (856467)
07-01-2019 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 585 by AZPaul3
07-01-2019 12:00 AM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers ThemselvesEve
Even if Saturn is sitting on your head you can tell it to buzz off.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2019 12:00 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 591 of 642 (856471)
07-01-2019 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 581 by Thugpreacha
06-30-2019 4:04 PM


Re: Take A Side
As jar said most of us have no clue what that picture is about. Please explain.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-30-2019 4:04 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 595 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-01-2019 1:39 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 592 of 642 (856472)
07-01-2019 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 583 by AZPaul3
06-30-2019 7:23 PM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
Mandate of God: White Supremacy

Add killing abortion doctors and gay folks all over the world and the beat goes on.

Why do you accuse mainstream believers of the rare misdeeds of very few people who make up their own theology? Also when you talk of killing people "all over the world" who are you talking about? Muslims kill gays. They are also killing Christians in great numbers. Yet you don't bother with such distinctions.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 583 by AZPaul3, posted 06-30-2019 7:23 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 596 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2019 1:49 PM Faith has responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2074
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 593 of 642 (856474)
07-01-2019 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
03-14-2006 3:58 AM


Re: The apologists defense of the literalist faith
Gods made God, silly.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-14-2006 3:58 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 594 of 642 (856479)
07-01-2019 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 579 by Thugpreacha
06-30-2019 3:58 PM


Re: Take A Sidse
Phat writes:

Often times I simply shoot these posts back to you in order to carry on the argument.


"Nuh uh," is not an argument.

Phat writes:

What I'm starting to realize is that me being right does not automatically make you wrong.


And vice versa. Even if every word I said was wrong, it doesn't make you right.

In fact, many times you are objectively wrong - but you try to defend your subjective position anyway. No wonder it's so hard to come up with an argument of substance.


All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-30-2019 3:58 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 595 of 642 (856526)
07-01-2019 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by Faith
07-01-2019 7:56 AM


Re: Take A Side
It was a random meme from a movie known as Goodfellas. I wanted to capture an image of people laughing. I suppose that memes are dead to some...meaningless. Or we could say memingless

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 7:56 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4258
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 596 of 642 (856528)
07-01-2019 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 592 by Faith
07-01-2019 7:59 AM


Re: The Evidence Is The Believers Themselves
Muslims kill gays.

Is that supposed to excuse christians doing the same thing?

Besides, Islam is also evil following in the finest of christian traditions. You both spring from the same god, the same genesis. You guys taught your demented younger brother well.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 7:59 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 597 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 2:10 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 597 of 642 (856532)
07-01-2019 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 596 by AZPaul3
07-01-2019 1:49 PM


Christianity is not the same thing as Catholicism or Islam
Christians never "did the same thing." We refuse to validate gay weddings but there is nothing violent in that. The violence has been coming from the other side who vandalized the Oregon bakery for their perfectly polite refusal. The law of marriage was only very recently changed and is now being used as a weapon against Christian obedience of God

You know nothing of history. The Roman Church killed heretics. That's because they were a political power, which no Christian church should ever be. They are still a political power, the Vatican is actually a political State. During their centuries of persecuting others their theology wasn't even close to being Christian. When some priests actually read the Bible they found out that they were practicing something entirely different. They inherited the pagan superstitions of the Roman Empire and to a great extent lost the teachings of the Bible, subordinating them to the pagan superstitions. Collecting and reverencing relics is ridiculously pagan. So is turning "Mary" and other "saints" into objects of worship to be prayed to llke some pantheon of gods. The Rosary comes from pagan religion. I found that out when I spent time with a friend who was a Buddhist priestess: she kept a rosary wrapped around her forearm. Lighting candles is pagan. That totally weird garb worn by the priests and bishops is pagan, comes from the priests of the Roman religions: the fishhead mitre worn by the bishops comes from the worship of the fish god Dagon. The mother and child images of Catholicism have their source in many pagan religions, starting with the religion of Tammuz and Semiramis and expressed in the religions of Krishna and even some Asian religions. Extravagant wealth is displayed in their churches and their robes. Such wealth contradicts the very foundations of Christianity. They even forbade people to own it or read the Bible. Most of this is still in evidence in the RCC though in Protestant nations they act more like Protestants and are now allowed to read the Bible. AND THEY HAD THEIR EVLL INQUISITION WHICH WASN'T JUST CONFINED TO SPAIN BUT WENT ON IN VARIOUS FORMS IN EUROPE FOR SIX HUNDRED YEARS AND MURDERED FIFTY MILLION DISSENTING CHRISTIANS ALONG WITH SEVENTEEN MILLION JEWS AND OTHERS.

NONE of that is Christian in spirit. It took the Protestant Reformation to begin to get the Church back to Christianity.

Islam is an entirely different thing, totally made up by Mohammed from his basic illiteracy with a smattering of knowledge of some parts of the Bible, under the influence of what he thought was the angel Gabriel but was certainly a demon. One of Mohammed's aunts thought he was demon possessed. None of the teachings of Islam is Christian in spirit. When he discovered he couldnh't get people to accept it he went out killing them to motivate them. That's how the murderous religion of Islam "spread." It teaches the eventual subjugation of the entire world to "Allah," which was originally the hame of the pagan moon god. They all look to the eventual Kalifa when the entire human race will worship Allah, whether they can do it by persuasion or by murder.

None of that is even remotely like Christianity which is the peaceful gospel of salvation through belief in Christ, and in spirit is self sacrificial.

Perhaps you don't care. Too bad.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2019 1:49 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 598 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2019 5:27 PM Faith has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4258
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 598 of 642 (856573)
07-01-2019 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by Faith
07-01-2019 2:10 PM


Re: Christianity is not the same thing as Catholicism or Islam
The law of marriage was only very recently changed and is now being used as a weapon against Christian obedience of God.

Weapon against god?

No one is making you be gay against the dictates of your god.

You have no right to tell anyone else they can not be gay.

It is you using your god as a weapon against humanity.

Christian is evil.

Islam is an entirely different thing,

Nah, it's the same thing only it wears a keffiyeh.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 2:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 5:43 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 599 of 642 (856576)
07-01-2019 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by AZPaul3
07-01-2019 5:27 PM


Re: Christianity is not the same thing as Catholicism or Islam
You are giving a very perverse and tendentious argument against the facts and excuse me but what YOU are doing is what is really evll. Not that it matters because your perverse opinion is becoming the popular one these days and true or not it's the Christains who are going to suffer as a result. However, we are told to expect that so I guess even we soft American Christians are going to have to learn to be eaten by lions and love it.

Weapon against god?

Against believers in God. But yes against God too.

No one is making you be gay against the dictates of your god.

I see I gave you more credit for reasonable though than you deserve. This is a perfectly ridiculous statement since we are not forced to be gay but forced to treat same sex marriage as legitimate, which is against the dictates of my God. They can have cake and coffee on the premises or a custom birthday cake. But we can't make them a wedding cake, sorry. The law is the evll thing here.

You have no right to tell anyone else they can not be gay.

Don't be ridiculous. Actually if anyone is telling anyone what they can or cannot be or do it's the new law happily enforced by the LGBT people now claiming the right to tell US that we cannot be Christians and believe what we've believed for thousands of years. Why aren't you pointing out that they have no right to tell US what we can be and do?

It is you using your god as a weapon against humanity.

That is an evll lle. We are quietly minding our own business when along comes someone who wants to make us accept THEIR belief system against our own and is willing to destroy our businesses, treat us as dhimmis and yes no doubt throw us to the lions for it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2019 5:27 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 600 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2019 6:33 PM Faith has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4258
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 600 of 642 (856585)
07-01-2019 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 599 by Faith
07-01-2019 5:43 PM


Re: Christianity is not the same thing as Catholicism or Islam
... it's the Christains who are going to suffer as a result.

Yes. Being told to mind your own business and stop trying to control everyone's life is such a oppressive burden for the christian to bear.

This is a perfectly ridiculous statement since we are not forced to be gay but forced to treat same sex marriage as legitimate, which is against the dictates of my God.

Forced to treat fellow humans as fellow humans. How tragic! Your hate is showing again.

LGBT people now claiming the right to tell US that we cannot be Christians and believe what we've believed for thousands of years.

No one is saying you cannot be as hateful a christian as you want to be.

But in the marketplace, if you sell cake, you have to sell to everyone. No discrimination allowed. If you cannot do that because of your hate then you shouldn't be in the business.

Why aren't you pointing out that they have no right to tell US what we can be and do?

Someone has to stop your very open very public displays of hate. I know you've been at it for thousands of years but it is time for your evil to end.

and yes no doubt throw us to the lions for it.

I don't think that will help. Lions need to avoid all that cholesterol.

Maybe we just yank your business license.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 5:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 6:43 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
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