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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 646 of 752 (858150)
07-17-2019 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 634 by Tangle
07-03-2019 4:58 PM


Re: How To Determine Chosen Human Instruments
All your juries are always out Phat; have you not noticed?

There is no need to make rash conclusions when so much circumstantial evidence clouds the issue.

First, we have a large absence of evidence. I would argue that unbelief should never be the default position----especially among those of us who have experienced a strong subjective awareness of the presence of God. Some things cannot be objectively proven. My default is to remain a believer and ascribe these situations as mysteries.

But then again, many of you see no need for God to begin with...so your world view is necessarily different. Your juries are all in.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2019 4:58 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 647 of 752 (858151)
07-17-2019 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by Thugpreacha
07-17-2019 5:40 PM


Phat writes:

I would thus argue... a philosophical overview incorporating communion between God and Man...


Okay, why don't you argue that instead of just asserting it?

Phat writes:

One obvious example: "The snake told the truth". Foolishness!!


God said it. You're calling God foolish.

Phat writes:

The snake was y implication a representation of satan...


There is no reason to think that that's true.

Phat writes:

... and we all know that satan is the father of lies.


Nope. We don't know that. We know that John thought that.

Phat writes:

There is no possible truth emanating from any such crawling creature.


Tell it to God. He admitted that the snake told the truth.

Phat writes:

Of course you can make an argument otherwise...


I have made that argument many times and you have never, ever made any attempt to refute it. Why not?

Phat writes:

... but what sense does your argument make...apart from suggesting that what is written explains the conclusion?


Again... the only source you have for your Jesus is the Book. You can't just throw the book out the window for some silly tales about "Satan" made up by a bunch of apologists.

Please stop spouting the same nonsense over and over again and think before you call God a liar. Come up with an actual argument before you call God a liar.


All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-17-2019 5:40 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-17-2019 6:07 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31201
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 648 of 752 (858153)
07-17-2019 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by Thugpreacha
07-17-2019 5:40 PM


Phat writes:

I would thus argue that the main qualifier as to who is and is not a Christian is more than simply claim to belonging to some club. It is by daily works, a philosophical overview incorporating communion between God and Man, and a reasonable understanding of scripture apart from simple deduction that is unshared by the believers-at-large in general.

Nothing there but word salad Phat; you argue for a position totally divorced from reality that has no meaning. When you can explain how a communion between God and man is possible or even what that means, then perhaps you might have something other than fantasy.

Phat writes:

One obvious example: "The snake told the truth". Foolishness!!

Again, you argue for a position totally divorced from reality.

What is actually written in the story!

Edited by jar, : clear sig


This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-17-2019 5:40 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31201
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 649 of 752 (858154)
07-17-2019 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by Thugpreacha
07-17-2019 5:47 PM


Re: No True Christian? Examine Yourselves Carefully!
Again, what I post related to being a Christian is actually based in reality and testable and verifiable.

And you still have not presented a model, method, mechanism, process or procedure to test whether Jesus is alive today or even explained what the hell that even means.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios � � My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-17-2019 5:47 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12707
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 650 of 752 (858155)
07-17-2019 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 647 by ringo
07-17-2019 5:53 PM


Taking On ringo
ringo writes:

Phat writes:
I would thus argue... a philosophical overview incorporating communion between God and Man...

Okay, why don't you argue that instead of just asserting it?
Phat writes:
One obvious example: "The snake told the truth". Foolishness!!

God said it. You're calling God foolish.

How can you honestly make such an argument when you don't even believe that God exists? Oh but of course you mean the God in the book! How silly of me! Jesus is the human character of God in the book, and Jesus said in"John 8:44 (ESV)
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Of course you will argue that it was John and not Jesus who actually said this. You don't see the God Who wrote the book as the preexisting Word.
ringo writes:

Phat writes:
The snake was by implication a representation of satan...

There is no reason to think that that's true.

There are plenty of reasons. Quit dismissing the apologists as a group of conmen. You yourself are doing more to distort the meaning of the book than they have collectively ever done. You attempt to reduce Christianity to a philosophical subset of human truth. This places it as fallible and untrue as your socialist "each according to their ability" claptrap (which wont work in today's world without a global war, by the way) Can even dare suggest! You need God before you will ever achieve utopia on this 3rd rock!
Phat writes:
... and we all know that satan is the father of lies.

Nope. We don't know that. We know that John thought that.

What reasons would you have to question Johns motives? He seems more in touch with God than either you or I. Forget your human morality argument...it falls flat at this point!

Phat writes:
There is no possible truth emanating from any such crawling creature.

Tell it to God. He admitted that the snake told the truth.

Oh? So you admit that God wrote the book?

Phat writes:
Of course you can make an argument otherwise...

I have made that argument many times and you have never, ever made any attempt to refute it. Why not?

I'm doing it as we speak. Better quit sipping and start flippin them pages, satch.
Phat writes:
... but what sense does your argument make...apart from suggesting that what is written explains the conclusion?

Again... the only source you have for your Jesus is the Book. You can't just throw the book out the window for some silly tales about "Satan" made up by a bunch of apologists.

I can and do argue that God preexisted the book. It is a belief, but it will stand the test of time far longer than any modern secular humanist utopian kum-ba-yah nonsense spouted by extreme Leftist idealists!

Please stop spouting the same nonsense over and over again and think before you call God a liar. Come up with an actual argument before you call God a liar.

My God never lies. Not even in Genesis. It is your God...or rather your interpretation of the book---that's on trial here.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 5:53 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 651 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 6:34 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 651 of 752 (858158)
07-17-2019 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 650 by Thugpreacha
07-17-2019 6:07 PM


Re: Taking On ringo
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

You're calling God foolish.


How can you honestly make such an argument when you dont even believe that God exists? Oh but of course you mean the God in the book! How silly of me!

You answered your own question.

Phat writes:

Of course you will argue that it was John and not Jesus who actually said this. You don't see the God Who wrote the book as the preexisting Word.


That's a separate issue.

Phat writes:

Quit dismissing the apologists as a group of conmen.


I have asked you and asked to to back up something that the apologists say. Anything. Until you do, you have no business putting them above what the Bible actually says.

Phat writes:

You yourself are doing more to distort the meaning of the book than they have collectively ever done.


That's an empty accusation. Back it up or withdraw it.

Phat writes:

You attempt to reduce Christianity to a philosophical subset of human truth.


Not at all. The Christianity that you push has little truth to it.

Phat writes:

This places it as fallible and untrue as your socialist "each according to their ability" claptrap...


That "claptrap" is right in the Bible and right in Jesus' mouth. I strongly advise you not to spit in your "leader's" face.

Phat writes:

...which wont work in today's world...


Sure it will.

Phat writes:

... without a global war, by the way...


Nonsense.

Phat writes:

....you need God before you will ever achieve utopia on this 3rd rock!


Nonsense.

That whole sentence was one of the stupidest things you've ever posted.

Phat writes:

What reasons would you have to question Johns motives?


What reason would you have for swallowing them hook, line and sinker without question?

Phat writes:

He seems more in touch with God than either you or I.


*shrug* Long John Silver seems like a nice guy much of the time.

Phat writes:

Forget your human morality argument...it falls flat at this point!


Considering the fact that you call your own God a liar and you call your own Jesus' teachings "claptrap", I think I'll keep my morality over yours.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Tell it to God. He admitted that the snake told the truth.


Oh? So you admit that God wrote the book?

I didn't say a word about who wrote the book.

Phat writes:

... but what sense does your argument make...apart from suggesting that what is written explains the conclusion?


Yes, what the book says does support the conclusion. Is that a bad thing?

Phat writes:

I can and do argue that God preexisted the book.


You really should learn the difference between argument and assertion.

Phat writes:

It is a belief, but it will stand the test of time...


Yeah, every belief that didn't stand the test of time said it would stand the test of time. Don't try to predict the future.

Phat writes:

... extreme Leftist idealists!


Behave yourself. You don't know your left from your right any better than Faith does.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-17-2019 6:07 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 413
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 652 of 752 (858315)
07-19-2019 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by Thugpreacha
07-17-2019 5:40 PM


Consider C. S. Lewis' idea that calling someone a Christian based on whether or not you believe they are following Christian doctrine is not a reasonable definition of Christian. C. S. Lewis says that one must distinguish between Christians who follow doctrine (good Christians) and those who don't (bad Christians) but not call the latter non-Christians.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-17-2019 5:40 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 653 by Faith, posted 07-19-2019 1:24 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 653 of 752 (858321)
07-19-2019 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 652 by Sarah Bellum
07-19-2019 1:09 PM


Are you sure Lewis said that? It's been years since I read him but I remember him saying that the term "Christian" is commonly bestowed on people without justification, just because they are nice people or **** in a Christian culture. I guess he could ALSO have said something along the other ***** but I'm surprised if so, orrect doctrine is a big part of what makes a Christian.

ABE: More I ***** about it and see the context in which this came up the more sure I am Lewis said nothing at all **** that.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 652 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 1:09 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 654 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 2:24 PM Faith has responded

    
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 413
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 654 of 752 (858332)
07-19-2019 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by Faith
07-19-2019 1:24 PM


My recollection is that he said if a person claimed to be a Christian we would take them at their word and if they did things Christians weren't supposed to do we would call them bad Christians.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by Faith, posted 07-19-2019 1:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 655 by Faith, posted 07-19-2019 2:25 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 655 of 752 (858333)
07-19-2019 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 654 by Sarah Bellum
07-19-2019 2:24 PM


That does not sound **** C. S. Lewis.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 2:24 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 2:29 PM Faith has responded

    
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 413
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 656 of 752 (858335)
07-19-2019 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 655 by Faith
07-19-2019 2:25 PM


C. S. Lewis wrote, in Mere Christianity

"Now if once we allow people to start spiritualising and refining, or as they might say 'deepening', the sense of the word Christian, it too will speedily become a useless word. In the first place, Christians themselves will never be able to apply it to anyone. It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men's hearts. We cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge. It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense. And obviously a word which we can never apply is not going to be a very useful word. As for the unbelievers, they will no doubt cheerfully use the word in the refined sense. It will become in their mouths simply a term of praise. In calling anyone a Christian they, will mean that they think him 'a good man' But that way of using the word will be no enrichment of the language, for we already have the word good. Meanwhile, the word Christian will have been spoiled for any really useful purpose it might have served.

We must therefore stick to the original, obvious meaning. The name Christians was first given at Antioch (Acts 11:26) to 'the disciples', to those who accepted the teaching of the apostles. There is no question of its being restricted to those who profited by that teaching as much as they should have. There is no question of its being extended to those who in some refined, spiritual, inward fashion were 'far closer to the spirit of Christ' than the less satisfactory of the disciples The point is not a theological or moral one. It is only a question of using words so that we can all understand what is being said. When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by Faith, posted 07-19-2019 2:25 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 657 by Faith, posted 07-19-2019 3:34 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 657 of 752 (858344)
07-19-2019 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 656 by Sarah Bellum
07-19-2019 2:29 PM


OK, I accept that. I'm impressed that you found it.

But when someone actively badmouths standard Christian doctrine as jar does I don't ***** we are out of **** to say he isn't a Christian no matter how strenuously he claims that he is on the basis of external facts such as belonging to a church and so on. He actively rejects the foundational doctrine of salvation through Christ's death on the cross for instance. And I doubt Lewis would disagree with me.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 2:29 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 658 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-19-2019 5:04 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 659 by ringo, posted 07-19-2019 5:23 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 413
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 658 of 752 (858352)
07-19-2019 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 657 by Faith
07-19-2019 3:34 PM


That's C. S. Lewis' point, I think. If someone says they're a Christian but then breaks into your house, sits in your kitchen eating your food and tries to steal your TV we'd say that they're a Christian and a bad person, but if they, to use your example, reject the foundational doctrine of salvation through Christ's death on the cross, then we'd say they were something other than Christians. Deists, perhaps.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by Faith, posted 07-19-2019 3:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17173
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 659 of 752 (858357)
07-19-2019 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 657 by Faith
07-19-2019 3:34 PM


Faith writes:

But when someone actively badmouths standard Christian doctrine as jar does I don't think we are out of line to say he isn't a Christian....


You're always out of line to say somebody isn't a Christian. Judge not. Similarly, anybody else would be out of line to say that you are not a Christian because of your atrocious unChristlike behaviour.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by Faith, posted 07-19-2019 3:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 674 by Dredge, posted 07-23-2019 12:02 AM ringo has responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1280
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 660 of 752 (858491)
07-20-2019 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 643 by ringo
07-17-2019 5:21 PM


ringo writes:

What qualifies you to ask?


What qualifies you to ask that?

Matthew 7:7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

“Is it not those inside the Church whom you are to judge?” (1Cor 5:12)

it isn't up to you to decide.

“do not trust every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God … By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist” (1John 4:1-3)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by ringo, posted 07-17-2019 5:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 670 by ringo, posted 07-21-2019 2:39 PM Dredge has not yet responded

    
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