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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1278
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 661 of 750 (858492)
07-20-2019 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 641 by jar
07-17-2019 8:01 AM


jar writes:

I was born into a Christian Family, raised as a Christian, Baptized in the Rite of Baptism, Confirmed in the Rite of Confirmation, educated in a Christian School and a registered member of a recognized Christian Denomination.


So was my brother-in-law … and now he’s a rabid atheist. So, an atheist can also be a Christian?

I noticed you didn’t try and qualify yourself by mentioning any of your “Christian” beliefs … which is hardly surprising, since you probably have none.
But in the unlikely case that you do have any Christian beliefs, what are they? For example, who was Jesus? Do you even believe Jesus was a real person?

“ These people really did not belong to our fellowship, and that is why they left us; if they had belonged to our fellowship, they would have stayed with us. But they left so that it might be clear that none of them really belonged to us. (1John 2:19)

I am a Christian.

I seriously doubt it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 641 by jar, posted 07-17-2019 8:01 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 662 by jar, posted 07-20-2019 9:10 PM Dredge has responded
 Message 664 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-21-2019 11:19 AM Dredge has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31175
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 662 of 750 (858499)
07-20-2019 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by Dredge
07-20-2019 7:44 PM


My beliefs are, surprisingly my beliefs and have been outlined at EvC in detail.

But the fact remains that I am a registered member of a recognized Christian denomination and thus a Christian.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Dredge, posted 07-20-2019 7:44 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 663 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-21-2019 11:14 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 673 by Dredge, posted 07-22-2019 11:21 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 663 of 750 (858518)
07-21-2019 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 662 by jar
07-20-2019 9:10 PM


Talking The Talk and Walking The Walk
quote:
But the fact remains that I am a registered member of a recognized Christian denomination and thus a Christian.
So any moron could wander in off the street and if they convinced the committee that they could complete the course they would become a recognized member. Thus, to become a member of any club, one simply needs to complete the by laws. I see your rationale. In my club, one needs to confess, surrender, and they get the GOOHF Card and the decoder ring.

In my club, members recognize each other through both talking the talk ( Faith )and walking the walk.(works)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by jar, posted 07-20-2019 9:10 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 664 of 750 (858519)
07-21-2019 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 661 by Dredge
07-20-2019 7:44 PM


jars Christianity
jar is a Christian...though he was taught to think and was Episcopalian...(they never park their brains at the door) so he questions a lot of stuff. His belief about Jesus can be summerized here:
jar writes:

I do believe that Jesus is GOD but while he was here on earth He was fully man, human, just like you, just like me.

I think lots of folk misunderstand the term incarnate. They have, if they even really think about it at all, some idea of incarnate means "God in Human Form" as though it was some costume GOD put on so he could sneak around and spy on the humans.

That makes as little sense theologically IMHO as the idea that Jesus let himself be killed as some blood sacrifice.

Jesus was a teacher. The information we have all says that everything he did during his life was to teach people. If the message was as some have said, that his followers are saved and the bad guys are gonna get it, Jesus lives the wrong story. In that story when it came time to lay hands on Him He would have swung around, flapped open his oilskin slicker, drawn his trusty Ivory handled six-guns, mowed down the Clancy Brothers and rid out of town leaving behind one silver bullet and on the ears of the wind, a hearty "Hi-Ho Silver, Away".

But Jesus is not some Masked Man. The power of the Jesus saga is that He is human.

A God cannot be tempted, Jesus was. And Jesus resisted. And the message is "humans can resist evil".

A God cannot be threated, Jesus was. And Jesus did not respond with more violence. And the message is "humans can try to find ways other than violence".

A God cannot die, Jesus did. And Jesus rose from the dead. And the message is "all humans will rise from the dead".

Just as I believe that we must be honest about the great Evil that Christians have done in the past and that Christians are doing now, I believe we must also be honest about what the message was.

It is not that Christians are saved and everyone else is damned.

It is that GOD gave us in the life of Jesus a clear lesson of what a human should do, and more importantly, can do.

And for the record, Dredge...you too have a lot to learn. I disagree with jar in that he believes that all people are saved. I believe that we have to surrender our own will and put our faith in Jesus. To me this is crucial...one cannot (or should not) be allowed to keep their own will and enter heaven. That's what got Lucifer booted out in the first place.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Dredge, posted 07-20-2019 7:44 PM Dredge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by jar, posted 07-21-2019 11:32 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31175
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 665 of 750 (858520)
07-21-2019 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 664 by Thugpreacha
07-21-2019 11:19 AM


Re: jars Christianity
Phat writes:

That's what got Lucifer booted out in the first place.

That's Dante's Inferno Phat. In the Bible Lucifer (aka Satan) is God's servant and tester; even throughout the New Testament.

And exactly what can be gained by parking one's brain at the door?

Were we given brains so we could willfully refuse to use them?

But I was under the impression that the topic is "Who made God?" and so what does the evidence show?

Why is the God described in Genesis 1 entirely different than the God described in Genesis 2 & 3?

Why is your God any different than Ganesha or Thor or Ra or Jupiter or Raven or Coyote?

What does the evidence show?

AbE: and surrender to what Phat? It appears that the only surrendering is surrendering your ability to think and question the dogma and surrendering to what the Snake-Oil Salesman tell you the Bible really says rather than what is actually written.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 664 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-21-2019 11:19 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-21-2019 12:41 PM jar has responded
 Message 681 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-27-2019 3:32 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 666 of 750 (858525)
07-21-2019 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 665 by jar
07-21-2019 11:32 AM


Re: jars Christianity
jar writes:

Why is your God any different than Ganesha or Thor or Ra or Jupiter or Raven or Coyote?

Because I believe in Him and follow Him. I do not believe any of those other ones nor do I follow them. My God is uniquely my God. You may claim He is as made up as any of the rest of them, but the difference is that I and many others listen to the One we adapt.

You may then argue that this confirms that humans make up God and that your belief hinges on the construct: IF God exists.... You always leave the construct open in the name of logic, reason, and reality. Thus why Dredge questions whether you are a believer. You conclude with a question rather than an answer.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by jar, posted 07-21-2019 11:32 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 667 by jar, posted 07-21-2019 1:23 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31175
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 667 of 750 (858530)
07-21-2019 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 666 by Thugpreacha
07-21-2019 12:41 PM


Re: jars Christianity
Phat writes:

You conclude with a question rather than an answer.

No Phat; I am honest enough to understand that what I believe is not evidence of fact beyond the fact that I believe.

Should we not be honest?

Phat writes:

jar writes:

Why is your God any different than Ganesha or Thor or Ra or Jupiter or Raven or Coyote?

Because I believe in Him and follow Him. I do not believe any of those other ones nor do I follow them. My God is uniquely my God.

So your only response is that it is the God you have made up and not the God someone else made up.

I understand.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-21-2019 12:41 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 668 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-21-2019 1:25 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 668 of 750 (858531)
07-21-2019 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 667 by jar
07-21-2019 1:23 PM


Re: jars Christianity
Im not 100% convinced that I made Him up. You of course will argue that GOD if GOD exists is likely unlike anything we have thus far imagined.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by jar, posted 07-21-2019 1:23 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 669 by jar, posted 07-21-2019 1:28 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31175
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 669 of 750 (858533)
07-21-2019 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 668 by Thugpreacha
07-21-2019 1:25 PM


Re: jars Christianity
Phat writes:

Im not 100% convinced that I made Him up.

Did you not say "Because I believe in Him and follow Him. I do not believe any of those other ones nor do I follow them. My God is uniquely my God."

How is your belief any different than those of someone who follows Coyote or Raven or Thor or Ra or Ganesha or ...

Isn't the only difference what YOU choose to believe?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-21-2019 1:25 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 671 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-21-2019 4:26 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 670 of 750 (858538)
07-21-2019 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 660 by Dredge
07-20-2019 7:31 PM


Dredge writes:

What qualifies you to ask that?


So you understand then that nobody is qualified to ask, "What qualifies you as a Christian?" as you did in Message 640.

Dredge writes:

“Is it not those inside the Church whom you are to judge?” (1Cor 5:12)


Try looking at that in context:
quote:
1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

You are told not to keep company with fornicators, coveters, idolaters, railers, drunkards or extortioners within the Church. It does not say you are allowed to decide who is a Christian.

Dredge writes:

“do not trust every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God … By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist” (1John 4:1-3)


Remember how to test the spirit:
quote:
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

And those fruits are?
quote:
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 660 by Dredge, posted 07-20-2019 7:31 PM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 671 of 750 (858543)
07-21-2019 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 669 by jar
07-21-2019 1:28 PM


Phats Crazy Illogical Belief
jar writes:

How is your belief any different than those of someone who follows Coyote or Raven or Thor or Ra or Ganesha or ...

Isn't the only difference what YOU choose to believe?

Objectively, yes. Apparently so, in fact. Actually I believe in One God, personified in the character of Jesus Christ, once objectively human and now eternally God of very God. I also believe that, as was the case with Moses and the magicians, counterfeit spirits have the ability to produce lying signs and wonders. Implication? That there is more than one manifestation of power and of signs and wonders. You will ask how I know that my God is the real One....and this is also my belief-- that there is but One Creator of all seen and unseen. I will admit that my belief is (or appears to be) crazy and illogical....so I wont pretend that it is logical.

I will, of course insist that all of the gods worshipped except mine are the counterfeits. And that will always get challenged.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 669 by jar, posted 07-21-2019 1:28 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by jar, posted 07-21-2019 5:16 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31175
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 672 of 750 (858544)
07-21-2019 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 671 by Thugpreacha
07-21-2019 4:26 PM


Re: Phats Crazy Illogical Belief
Phat writes:

I will, of course insist that all of the gods worshipped except mine are the counterfeits. And that will always get challenged.

And rightly challenged.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-21-2019 4:26 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1278
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 673 of 750 (858698)
07-22-2019 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 662 by jar
07-20-2019 9:10 PM


jar writes:

My beliefs are, surprisingly my beliefs and have been outlined at EvC in detail … I do believe that Jesus is GOD, but while he was here on earth He was fully man, human, just like you, just like me.


How could God ‘de-God’ Himself and became a mere creature (the man, Jesus)? How could a creature (the man, Jesus) became God? The mind boggles.

If Jesus didn’t claim his own divinity, why did he refer to himself as “something greater than the Temple” and “the “Lord of the Sabbath”; and why did the Jews accuse him of blasphemy?

John the Baptist described Jesus as “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world” - how can a mere man possibly take away the sins of the world?

If you deny that the earthly Jesus was not God Incarnate, you are denying John 1:1-14 ...
“The Word was God … and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us … as the only-begotten Son from the Father.” That is to say, GOD dwelt among us. How do you explain “his name shall be called Emmanuel … which means, ‘God with us’” (Matt 1:23)?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by jar, posted 07-20-2019 9:10 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 675 by jar, posted 07-23-2019 8:42 AM Dredge has responded

    
Dredge
Member
Posts: 1278
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 674 of 750 (858701)
07-23-2019 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by ringo
07-19-2019 5:23 PM


ringo writes:

You're always out of line to say somebody isn't a Christian. Judge not.


You clearly don’t understand judgement as it applies within Christianity. Christians are not entitled to judge a person’s soul - as in “You are an evil person and you’re going to hell” - as only God can judge a person’s soul. But a Christian is allowed to judge the deeds, words and beliefs of other Christians according the norms of Christian doctrine - as in “What you believe or what you are doing/saying is wrong/evil/unChristian.”

For example, Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t considered to be authentic Christians because they deny the divinity of Jesus. In the same vein, Christians are entitled to judge and call out someone like jar, who claims to be a “Christian”, but denies a core Christian doctrine such as the divinity of the earthly Jesus.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by ringo, posted 07-19-2019 5:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by ringo, posted 07-23-2019 11:53 AM Dredge has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31175
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 675 of 750 (858711)
07-23-2019 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 673 by Dredge
07-22-2019 11:21 PM


Dredge writes:

How could God ‘de-God’ Himself and became a mere creature (the man, Jesus)? How could a creature (the man, Jesus) became God? The mind boggles.

Yet that is exactly what is affirmed in the Nicene Creed. Beginning with the original version formulated in 325 AD which said "Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;" and continuing throughout Christian history to the current version which is:

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

The various authors of the New Testament stories made quite a few claims.

But again, the notion of Jesus as something other than just man while alive on earth simply denigrates and diminshes any value to his life.

I simply honestly support the basics of the Christian faith and kinda laugh at the fumbling of the current CCoI.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 673 by Dredge, posted 07-22-2019 11:21 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 677 by Dredge, posted 07-26-2019 6:04 PM jar has responded

  
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