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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 691 of 750 (859123)
07-28-2019 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 690 by jar
07-28-2019 3:39 PM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
jar writes:

We have no way to even surrender reasoning other then a conscious decision to simply not think and even that requires reasoning.

Stop and think. You yourself introduced the construct to me. A believer goes one step beyond the construct. A believer eliminates the word "IF". A believer decides to consciously trust that GOD if GOD exists desires a form of communion. Beyond drinking grape juice and munching on unsalted wafers. Beyond a symbolic ritual. You may cringe and say that this means parking your brain at the door, but I'm telling you that you wont have evidence that what you are stepping into is in any way rational, logical, or explainable. So yes...in a way you decide not to think, beyond choosing to trust that GOD exists and that He cares whether you choose to trust Him.(not the snake oil salesmen) I believe that because of your rational questioning mind you never bought into this dogma. You never trusted God(through Jesus) because of several reasons.
1) You were well read and saw that there were many gods in many books, cultures, and mythology.
2) You read the Bible and saw discrepancies from what was taught in popular apologetics, plus the fact that you helped build a house for a Pastor who then sold it from out under that church.
3) You (and others) likely saw and see no evidence that these others of us who are believers are in any way wiser, happier, or more enlightened than you currently are, so why take a plunge and abandon reason?

I can respect your logic. All I can say is that I really don't know what plan God has for you...apart from doing what you do, which I always joked was being the Apostle To The Atheists! :lol:

Stop just posting utter nonsense.
I will post what I believe and feel. You cannot expect to frame this discussion and steer me into your way of thinking. I know what you think and believe better than anyone else at EvC.

Its too bad we don't have chat anymore...I always liked real time discussion with you there.

In conclusion, Man may have made God, but Man never made GOD and Jesus lives eternally according to the Nicene Creed also. Will you never surrender your conscious intelligence and ego to GOD or do you imagine that "She" doesn't expect you to?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 690 by jar, posted 07-28-2019 3:39 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 692 by jar, posted 07-28-2019 5:19 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31175
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 692 of 750 (859125)
07-28-2019 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 691 by Thugpreacha
07-28-2019 4:29 PM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
Phat writes:

So yes...in a way you decide not to think, beyond choosing to trust that GOD exists and that He cares whether you choose to trust Him.

Yup, you decide not to think.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 691 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-28-2019 4:29 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 694 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-29-2019 2:43 AM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7004
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 693 of 750 (859137)
07-29-2019 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 689 by Thugpreacha
07-28-2019 3:07 PM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
Phat writes:

surrendering to Him.

What does this actually mean Phat?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 689 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-28-2019 3:07 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 694 of 750 (859138)
07-29-2019 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 692 by jar
07-28-2019 5:19 PM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
jar writes:

Yup, you decide not to think.

Lets go there.

The Apologists say that all have fallen, or are incapable of being selfless and altruistic as a society. They point to the numerous wars, atrocities, and even now the competitive nature of some nations who feel they have a manifest destiny to override others. Then you have racism. Tangle will no doubt argue that humans are getting better, but is this true? The support comes from a literal interpretation of the scriptures--as inspired by GOD. Granted I see how these writings can be used to support any point or belief, but I also have heard some good sermons that came directly out of scripture references and which just felt inspired and inspiring.

You will no doubt say that I should beware the snake oil salesmen, but I find your whole point about God lying to be even more atrocious. Nobody has ever been able to explain why a Creator of all seen and unseen with omnipotent power and omniscient knowledge would have any need to lie.

And then you go off on tangents that nobody else who has ever read the Bible concludes.(well, 95% of them)

Such as:

jar writes:

But according to the testimony found in the Bible,(the) Jesus character was not much different than any other human of the period; he had a temper, could be abrupt, self centered, unsure, remorseful, petulant, demanding, unreasonable and selfish.

Talk about embellishing!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 692 by jar, posted 07-28-2019 5:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 695 by jar, posted 07-29-2019 7:42 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 696 by ringo, posted 07-29-2019 12:21 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31175
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 695 of 750 (859140)
07-29-2019 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 694 by Thugpreacha
07-29-2019 2:43 AM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
The apologists say that all is fallen and so the numerous wars, atrocities, and even now the competitive nature of some nations who feel they have a manifest destiny to override others and racism and all the other evils are not just humans fault but because they are fallen. Their cry is "We can't help doing evil because Adam and Eve learned how to tell right from wrong."

Honestly, their position is simply pitiful and disgusting.

Phat writes:

You will no doubt say that I should beware the snake oil salesmen, but I find your whole point about God lying to be even more atrocious. Nobody has ever been able to explain why a Creator of all seen and unseen with omnipotent power and omniscient knowledge would have any need to lie.

Yet the Bible says that God does not have omnipotent power and omniscient knowledge and I have pointed out the passages that support my assertion numerous times. Sure there are passages in the Bible where characters claim such things for the God character but the examples I use are the stories where it is the God Character who directly demonstrates and claims to not have total knowledge and where the God Character shows fear or the God Character actually does lie.

There is a difference between some character in a story making claims about another character and examples where the character itself is acting.

The same is true of the Jesus Character in the stories; their are the tales where the behavior of Jesus is directly shown and there are the stories where some other character is making claims about Jesus.

The issue Phat is that I agree that the Bible actually says what is actually written while the Apologists say the Bible means what they want it to mean and not what is actually written.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-29-2019 2:43 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 696 of 750 (859160)
07-29-2019 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 694 by Thugpreacha
07-29-2019 2:43 AM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
Phat writes:

Nobody has ever been able to explain why a Creator of all seen and unseen with omnipotent power and omniscient knowledge would have any need to lie.


That has been explained to you.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-29-2019 2:43 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 697 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-29-2019 12:26 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 697 of 750 (859161)
07-29-2019 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 696 by ringo
07-29-2019 12:21 PM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
I cant find where, unless you expect me to believe that the story was written as a fairy tale. I don't believe that. I sam talking about the actual philosophical idea of a Creator of all seen and unseen. The rationale is probable. The idea that such a character lies is nuts.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 696 by ringo, posted 07-29-2019 12:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 698 by ringo, posted 07-29-2019 12:59 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 699 by jar, posted 07-29-2019 2:08 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 698 of 750 (859169)
07-29-2019 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by Thugpreacha
07-29-2019 12:26 PM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
Phat writes:

I cant find where, unless you expect me to believe that the story was written as a fairy tale. I don't believe that.


Well, it was written as a fairy tale (hint: talking snake) and it doesn't matter one little bit whether you believe that or not. The fact is that it has been explained to you why God might have lied.

Phat writes:

I sam talking about the actual philosophical idea of a Creator of all seen and unseen. The rationale is probable. The idea that such a character lies is nuts.


No it isn't.

He might have lied, like a parent lies to his child, to give him a reason to be good. ("If you're bad, Santa won't bring you any presents.")

Or He might have exaggerated the consequences (lied) to protect His child. ("If you touch the stove, you'll burn the house down.")

Or it might have been more-or-less a joke. ("Don't make faces or it will stay like that.")

Or He might have just changed His mind.

But no doubt you'll forget this by tomorrow and come back again with the bullshit that "God didn't lie."


All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-29-2019 12:26 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 700 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-29-2019 3:52 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31175
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 699 of 750 (859181)
07-29-2019 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by Thugpreacha
07-29-2019 12:26 PM


All this is essential to the topic.
And all this is essential to the topic and your position simply adds to the weight of evidence that Man Created God.

You market the God you have created.

The author of the Genesis 1 God would likely agree with you about an all powerful, all knowing, assured God but would laugh at your idea of a God who needs, wants or even bothers with any communion or contact or aid to anything created. That author created a hands off God who got it started but then retired from the game entirely.

The author of the Genesis 2&3 God would likely agree with you about the God communing with the creation and even helping the creation but had no problems imagining the God lying or cheating or being afraid or punishing the creation unjustly.

You market a God who steps in and helps individuals through difficulties, a Ganesha that is the enabler and smoother of ways.

The point is that so far all of the evidence, all of the testimony supports the answer "Man Made God".


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-29-2019 12:26 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 701 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-29-2019 4:01 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 700 of 750 (859188)
07-29-2019 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by ringo
07-29-2019 12:59 PM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
Its not B.S. Its my opinion and belief and I have every right and rationale to state mine as you do yours. personally, I think you simply have a different mindframe. You expect people to have made up the books and the gods. You don't consider the idea of what the apologists say as in any way rational. Just because Christians behaving badly indicts the believers and satan seems to send the idiots to talk on the Atheist Experience and at EvC does not mean that all apologists or all believers are wrong. Personally, I believe that the educated secular humanist mindset is the ones who have bought into the lie, but its only a personal belief.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by ringo, posted 07-29-2019 12:59 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 702 by ringo, posted 07-29-2019 5:26 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 701 of 750 (859189)
07-29-2019 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 699 by jar
07-29-2019 2:08 PM


Re: All this is essential to the topic.
If you believe what you just said, how can you claim to be a believer? If the evidence in your mind says that Man made God, why even entertain the funky rituals? Why state that you are a member of an established club? Just to get the decoder ring??

Look, you and I have discussed this stuff for years. You guys try and tell me that I created the God I worship. But you never had the experiences I had, where I changed dramatically overnight and became aware of the presence. Or of the several unexplained events i have witnessed. Or of the times that prayer works.

I guess what frustrates me around this place is that no one respects my life experience. You seem to think I would have done better steering clear of religion, getting an education, and having a humanist hope for the future of humanity as you do.

But I'm no dummy. I am as smart as many of you, and I do my homework carefully. The only real difference between us is that I am a believer (with experiences which led to that conclusion) and you people by and large are not.

And as for you, jar---the difference between us is that I don't lump all of the cultural "gods" into the same category. It is true that I cannot explain how knowing Jesus or knowing the Holy Spirit is even possible, but I'm working on it---if it ever is possible. I'm not sure why it is I want to win these foolish arguments....I should just let God deal with you all and show you His reality Himself. But keep trying to get me to think wiser. It does help sometimes.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 699 by jar, posted 07-29-2019 2:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 703 by jar, posted 07-29-2019 5:38 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 702 of 750 (859195)
07-29-2019 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 700 by Thugpreacha
07-29-2019 3:52 PM


Re: jar prefers Whiskey to Kool Aid
Phat writes:

Its not B.S. Its my opinion and belief and I have every right and rationale to state mine as you do yours.


No you do not have a right to an opinion on what the Bible says. It says what it says - and the idea that God didn't lie is bullshit.

Phat writes:

You don't consider the idea of what the apologists say as in any way rational.


I'm still waiting for you to defend what the apologists say. If you're so supremely confident in them, show us.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 700 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-29-2019 3:52 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31175
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 703 of 750 (859197)
07-29-2019 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 701 by Thugpreacha
07-29-2019 4:01 PM


Re: All this is essential to the topic.
Phat writes:

If you believe what you just said, how can you claim to be a believer?

I don't claim to be a believer; I am a believer. For example I believe the Bible actually says what is actually written in the Bible stories. I don't pretend that what is actually written is not what is actually written.

Phat writes:

If the evidence in your mind says that Man made God, why even entertain the funky rituals?

It is not the evidence of my mind but rather the very factual evidence of what has been written in the various Holy Books; the Book of the Dead; the Vedas; the Quran & Hadath; the Sutras; the Tanach, Mishnah, Talmud and Midrash; the Bible; the works of Mencius & Confucius; the Greek & Roman theologies; the Norse theologies; Raven & Coyote...

Do not all of those include Gods or Moral Pathways? Is not Theos the study of God regardless of which God is the subject?

Phat writes:

Why state that you are a member of an established club?

Why not state that I am a member of a recognized Christian Sect when the fact is that I am a member of a recognized Christian Sect?

Phat writes:

Just to get the decoder ring?

And Phat, have you not noticed yet that I don't have the decoder ring. Don't I have to ask you repeatedly "How do you know" and "What is the test you use" and still get no answers?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 701 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-29-2019 4:01 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 704 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-30-2019 8:13 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 705 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-30-2019 8:18 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 704 of 750 (859242)
07-30-2019 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 703 by jar
07-29-2019 5:38 PM


Re: All this is essential to the topic.
jar writes:

It is not the evidence of my mind but rather the very factual evidence of what has been written in the various Holy Books; the Book of the Dead; the Vedas; the Quran & Hadath; the Sutras; the Tanach, Mishnah, Talmud and Midrash; the Bible; the works of Mencius & Confucius; the Greek & Roman theologies; the Norse theologies; Raven & Coyote...

Do not all of those include Gods or Moral Pathways? Is not Theos the study of God regardless of which God is the subject?

You dont get it. A believer is a beliver in one GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen, whose Son Jesus Christ brought Holy Communion to humanity. The other gods you mention are cultural constructs...mythos....inventions of cultures of various times and places. There is but One God. If you claim to be a believer you have to believe in that. Not in cultural relativism.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by jar, posted 07-29-2019 5:38 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 709 by ringo, posted 07-30-2019 12:08 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 705 of 750 (859243)
07-30-2019 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 703 by jar
07-29-2019 5:38 PM


Re: All this is essential to the topic.
jar writes:

Don't I have to ask you repeatedly "How do you know" and "What is the test you use" and still get no answers?

I've given several attempts at an answer. This is a question you need to be asking yourself. How do you know? And if you don't, you end up with cultural relativism and teaching the stuff that you teach where God is reduced to a character in a book. That's not (the character of) a believer. Thats a man who embraces logic, reason, and reality but who has never met God. Because he doesn't know or see how this is possible.

Quit asking others how they know that its possible. The question is if it is possible for *you* to do. Perhaps you will be honest and say that there is no way you will surrender logic, reason, and reality for a fantasy. My point is that for me at least, it is no fantasy. Critics would say that unless that is true for everyone, it is simply my belief and my belief alone. Sad.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by jar, posted 07-29-2019 5:38 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 706 by jar, posted 07-30-2019 8:56 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 708 by Stile, posted 07-30-2019 10:11 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
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