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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
jar
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Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 766 of 854 (861947)
08-29-2019 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 765 by 1.61803
08-29-2019 3:49 PM


Perhaps surprisingly my 9th. grade English teacher at St. Paul's. It was another one of those small opuses they seemed to love assigning. He was also the one that turned several of us on to films like Orfeu Negro, Never on Sunday and Wild Strawberries.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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1.61803
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Posts: 2905
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 767 of 854 (861951)
08-29-2019 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 761 by Thugpreacha
08-29-2019 1:52 PM


Re: Walking In The Spirit
(AFAIK)They where there to celebrate the passover meal. They could not find a place to have the meal, every place was booked,so the upper room was probably a roof top.
Thats what I heard on the street. The had no idea that the incredible significance of what was about to go down. JC of course was finally laying it all down. The grail was a hand thrown mud cup, and just like most of the gospels the story grew a life of its own. But all that does not matter. What matter is what Jesus means to you personally. just my opinion.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 768 of 854 (861954)
08-29-2019 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 767 by 1.61803
08-29-2019 5:33 PM


We tend to forget that most Christian Holy Days are simply co-opted Holy Days
We tend to forget that most Christian Holy Days are simply co-opted Holy Days that were common in other religions. Even our major Holy Days like Easter and Pentecost were just repurposed Jewish Holidays.

Here is part of an adult Sunday School Class I once taught:

quote:
Easter and the Pentecost; Passover and Shavuot.

Easter and Pentecost. On Easter Day we celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus and on Pentecost the arrival of the Holy Spirit. As a Jew, Jesus would have celebrated Passover and Shavuot at the same times.

But what are Passover and Shavuot?

Jesus had made his annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover. Passover is one of the three Pilgrimage Feasts mandated in the Torah. The other two mandated Pilgrimages are Shavuot and Sukkoth.

Most of us grew up learning the stories of Exodus, how the Israelites were warned to stay inside their homes and to paint the door frame with blood so the Angel of the Lord would pass over their homes as he killed the first born son of the Egyptians.

Shavuot is likely less familiar, but like the other two Pilgrimage Festivals, is related to the Exodus story. It celebrates the day that Moses was given the Torah on the Mountain of Sinai, and the day that the Jews accepted God’s Law, became a Nation of God.

Like Easter, it is a movable feast and falls seven, seven day weeks after the Second Day of Passover. It is called “The Feast of Counting” as the Jews anticipate the days, count the days, from Passover to the day of acceptance.

But how did the exact time of celebration come about?

No one actually knows when the Passover happened, or when exactly Moses received the Torah, so why do we celebrate Passover, Shavuot, Easter and Pentecost at these particular times of year?

Historically, Passover was celebrated with the first offerings of Barley. Wheat ripened slightly later and Shavuot was also the first offering from the Wheat harvest. The timing for these Pilgrimages corresponded to bringing the first of the harvests to the Temple, as offerings and for blessings.

The Third Mandatory Pilgrimage is Sukkoth. It too is related to the Exodus and when I was growing up, one of the most fun celebrations.

I grew up in an almost all Jewish neighborhood, so all my friends were Jewish. I was the Shabbat Goy, the Christian boy the orthodox Jews could call on to do things on Shabbat, turn on lights, turn on or off the stove, run errands.

One advantage though was getting to celebrate Sukkoth with my friends. Sukkoth commemorates living in the desert while on the Exodus march. All the kids get to make tents from tables and we got to sleep in them and have our meals on the floor and eat with our hands and get dirty and all the things we couldn’t do at other times.

But even Sukkoth is timed with the harvest. One of the traditions of Sukkoth is shaking the Four Species. The Four Species are Date Palm Fronds, Willow Branches, Myrtle and Citron, a fruit like lemons. As folk living here in the Valley know, citrus fruits are a Fall Harvest.

To celebrate, you take the Date Palm Frond, some Myrtle and the Willow in the left hand, and hold the Citron in your right. As you bring the two hands together, they are blessed. You then shake them three times to each of the four corners, to North, East, South and West.

The ceremony is a prayer of thanks for the year’s bounty and that there be rain enough for all the coming years’ growth.

Beyond the symbolic meanings of the Exodus in Passover, Shavuot and Sukkoth, beyond the symbolic meanings of Easter and the Pentecost, there was life, and an acknowledgement of the cycles of life and the harvest.


Christianity has always adopted and repurposed most any feast or party or celebration it found in any other religion. You do not gain converts by taking away existing festivals. Christmas, Easter, Pentecost are all examples of Christianity adopting, renaming and redefining existing celebrations and framing them in a Christian mythos just as the Jewish Holidays of Passover, Shavuot and Sukkoth are repurposed harvest festivals framed in a Jewish mythos.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 769 of 854 (861957)
08-29-2019 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 765 by 1.61803
08-29-2019 3:49 PM


Khalil Gibran .
Who ever turned you on to that,,,,,,loved you.

Yes, she did.

“If you love somebody, let them go, for if they return, they were always yours. If they don't, they never were.”

Memories.

So long ago.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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Dredge
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Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 770 of 854 (861970)
08-30-2019 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 754 by jar
08-27-2019 9:10 AM


jar writes:

Yet the fact remains what is actually written takes precedence over the dogma of your cult. The Nicean Creed says that Jesus became man. All the claims of your cult cannot change the fact of what was actually written.

You're like a drunk fool bumbling and stumbling from one dud argument to the next. The Incarnation is very clearly expressed in the Scriptures, which should take precedence of your ignorant interpretation of the Nicene Creed - but it doesn't, because you deny the Scriptures.

You also claim to know better than the Catholic Church (the original and largest Church) and the rest of Christianity, all of whom consider the Incarnation to be a core doctrine of their religion.

The only “Christians” who might agree with your heretical interpretation of the Nicene Creed would be a few misfit fringe-dwellers who aren’t considered to be part of the body of Christ - imposters like Jehovah’s Witnesses and other assorted retards and hillbillies.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 771 of 854 (861971)
08-30-2019 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 756 by Faith
08-27-2019 11:55 AM


post withdrawn

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
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Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 772 of 854 (861972)
08-30-2019 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 756 by Faith
08-27-2019 11:55 AM


Faith writes:

The Roman Church was understood by the Protestant Reformers to have begun when the Bishop of Rome was made Universal Bishop by the Byzantine Emperor Phocas, and called Pope, in 606 AD, the beginning of the papal system.

The early Church was called “Catholic” at least as early as AD107:

”The first use of the term "Catholic Church" (literally meaning "universal church") was by the church father Saint Ignatius of Antioch (c. 50–140) in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans (circa 110 AD) … The earliest recorded evidence of the use of the term "Catholic Church" is the Letter to the Smyrnaeans that Ignatius of Antioch wrote in about 107 to Christians in Smyrna. Exhorting Christians to remain closely united with their bishop, he wrote: "Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(term)

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Admin, : Fix formatting problems.


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Dredge
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Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 773 of 854 (861973)
08-30-2019 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 760 by jar
08-27-2019 5:20 PM


jar writes:

I point out that all of the evidence shows that every God described has been the product of a human mind.


So why do bother with what you call Christianity, if it’s all a fabrication of the human mind?

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Faith
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Posts: 32922
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 774 of 854 (861979)
08-30-2019 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 773 by Dredge
08-30-2019 3:27 AM


It isn't its catholicity, it's the papacy and the paganism
If you are responding to me by saying that the term "Catholic" was used to describe the Christian church early on, I'm not objecting. The term applies to the Church at large without in any sense implying the ROMAN church. Protestants also affirm the catholicity of the Church.

The historical point I was making was that the PAPACY is the defining element of the Roman Church, and that began in 606 AD. The Church also went on to accumulate more and more of the trappings of the roman pagan religions, from the robes and headdresses to the title "Pontifex Maxiumus" to the superstitions like relics and the rosary and a long list of other such stuff. Piling all that on to the simple gospel of Jesus Christ ought to have been enough to warn people this wasn't the religion of the Bible but somehow it kept on going. The true Christians escaped into the mountains and wherever they could, but were frequently hunted down and slaughtered for their "heresy" anyway.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 775 of 854 (861980)
08-30-2019 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 770 by Dredge
08-30-2019 3:11 AM


Yet the fact remains, that is exactly what is written in the Nicene Creed.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 776 of 854 (861981)
08-30-2019 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 773 by Dredge
08-30-2019 3:27 AM


Dredge writes:

So why do bother with what you call Christianity, if it’s all a fabrication of the human mind?

While all that is in the Bible is of course the product and creation of human minds, that does not make it all a fabrication.

As I have said, I am a Christian because I was raised in a Christian home, became a member of a recognized Christian Church, was educated in a Christian School and find many of the teachings, the gospel of Jesus a reasonable and practical way to live.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dredge
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Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 777 of 854 (862116)
09-01-2019 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 776 by jar
08-30-2019 7:15 AM


jar writes:

While all that is in the Bible is of course the product and creation of human minds, that does not make it all a fabrication.

Well, in terms of the Bible, my idea of a “fabrication” is something that doesn’t come from God, but from humans. So if the entire Bible is a product of human minds, then the entire Bible is a fabrication. Nevertheless, I’m interested in which parts of the Bible you consider to be not “a fabrication”.

As I have said, I am a Christian because I was raised in a Christian home, became a member of a recognized Christian Church, was educated in a Christian School and find many of the teachings, the gospel of Jesus a reasonable and practical way to live.

So you’re Christian on the outside, but not on the inside. In other words, like I said, you’re a fake Christian.

Do you believe in life after death?

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1291
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 778 of 854 (862117)
09-01-2019 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 775 by jar
08-30-2019 7:03 AM


jar writes:

Yet the fact remains, that is exactly what is written in the Nicene Creed


Your interpretation of the Nicene Creed contradicts the NT, from which the Creed is derived. Hilarious. But you don't believe any of it, which makes your attempts at theology even funnier.

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jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 779 of 854 (862122)
09-01-2019 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 778 by Dredge
09-01-2019 5:20 AM


Yet the fact remains I am not interpreting anything but rather simply pointing out what is actually written in EVERY version of the Nicene Creed since 325CE.

It's also a fact the the Bible is filled with contradicts and mutually exclusive accounts of what is said to have happened.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31276
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 780 of 854 (862126)
09-01-2019 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 777 by Dredge
09-01-2019 5:17 AM


Dredge writes:

Well, in terms of the Bible, my idea of a “fabrication” is something that doesn’t come from God, but from humans. So if the entire Bible is a product of human minds, then the entire Bible is a fabrication. Nevertheless, I’m interested in which parts of the Bible you consider to be not “a fabrication”.

None of the Bible comes from God unless the God is intentionally supplying false and misleading information. There is no other explanation possible since there are numerous examples of stories that evolve as they are retold and also examples of direct mutually exclusive accounts of supposedly the same event. Over the years I've covered many such examples here. Two clear examples are from the New Testament; the evolution of the Great Commission and the encounter of Saul on the road to Damascus.

Additional evidence that the Bible is a creation of humans is the fact that there is no such thing as "The Bible™" but rather a whole set of canons ranging from the smallest that contains only the first five books and none of the New Testament to the largest that contains over 80 books.

But the stories in the Bible record the political, economic and religious mythos of each era. It is an anthology of anthologies. They are not fabrications even though written by humans. They are often examples of the conflicts and schisms that existed almost from the beginning between different competing versions of Judaism and later the fledgling Jews sect called Christianity.

Dredge writes:

So you’re Christian on the outside, but not on the inside. In other words, like I said, you’re a fake Christian./////////// Do you believe in life after death?

Yes, I do believe there is a life after death (yet another reason it is essential that Jesus was only human while living on Earth) but also understand that believe is unreasonable, irrational and illogical. It's also impossible to test and there is absolutely no evidence to support that belief.

But if there is a Heaven I am very sure Christians will be a very small minority there and that there will be far more atheist, agnostics, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews. Taoists as well as followers of Confucius and Mencius in attendance.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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