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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Faith
Member
Posts: 33271
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 826 of 862 (862990)
09-18-2019 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 825 by Theodoric
09-18-2019 10:23 AM


Re: Eugenics and Darwin
I don't see a morality-defining worldview in the existence of aircraft, but I do see it in the ToE. Also in the tenets of Islam of course. Perhaps you could make your point clearer?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 825 by Theodoric, posted 09-18-2019 10:23 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 827 by jar, posted 09-18-2019 10:33 AM Faith has responded
 Message 829 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2019 11:06 AM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 827 of 862 (862992)
09-18-2019 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 826 by Faith
09-18-2019 10:25 AM


Re: Eugenics and Darwin
The point is that all of the evidence still shows that humans have created every God ever discussed, that Nazism/Fascism are Conservative not Liberal political and cultural creations and that Conservative Evangelical Protestant Christians in German were avid supporters of Hitler, his policies, the Fuehrer Principal and anti-Semites.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 826 by Faith, posted 09-18-2019 10:25 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by Faith, posted 09-18-2019 10:40 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33271
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 828 of 862 (862995)
09-18-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 827 by jar
09-18-2019 10:33 AM


Re: Eugenics and Darwin
Sounds like too many people were already buying into the Scientific definition of morality that allowed a Hitler to have such power. Believing in the authority of the God of the Bible does prescribe the humane standard that was lost in the Third Reich and in so many of our popular movements today. Even if you're right that it was all made up, which of course I reject, it would have exerted a humane influence that Science doesn't.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 827 by jar, posted 09-18-2019 10:33 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 829 of 862 (862998)
09-18-2019 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 826 by Faith
09-18-2019 10:25 AM


Re: Eugenics and Darwin
quote:
I don't see a morality-defining worldview in the existence of aircraft, but I do see it in the ToE.

Then you are hallucinating.

Anyway, having established that Darwin added nothing to eugenics (selective breeding is mentioned in the Bible!) here is what he had to say about it.

This quote is from The Descent of Man, Darwin’s book on human evolution.

The aid we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, even at the urging of hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present ****.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 826 by Faith, posted 09-18-2019 10:25 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 830 by Faith, posted 09-18-2019 11:16 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33271
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 830 of 862 (862999)
09-18-2019 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 829 by PaulK
09-18-2019 11:06 AM


Re: Eugenics and Darwin
Thanks for that from Darwin. Yes that is how we supposedly derive some moral principles from the ToE, but do note: he had to make up WHAT principle we should derive from it, as we always have to make it up, because the ToE really doesn't prescribe a moral standard. Sympathy? Well, OK? Altruism? Does it tell us not to steal, covet, lie, murder, commit adultery? Those principles also exist in Buddhism, based on the simple fact that nobody likes to be stolen from, lied to, cheated on etc. At least those principles have the virtue of being more or less in agreement with the Second Table of the Ten Commandments, but the ToE doesn't prescribe any morality with any kind of authority. You could just as well argue that evolution makes serial killers and greedy capitalists and tyranny. It seems to justify abortion just fine, and probably euthanasia.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 829 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2019 11:06 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 831 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2019 11:29 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 831 of 862 (863000)
09-18-2019 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 830 by Faith
09-18-2019 11:16 AM


Re: Eugenics and Darwin
quote:
Thanks for that from Darwin. Yes that is how we supposedly derive some moral principles from the ToE, but do note: he had to make up WHAT principle we should derive from it, as we always have to make it up, because the ToE really doesn't prescribe a moral standard.

Scientific theories don’t prescribe moral standards. And they shouldn’t.

And that is why you don’t see a “morality-defining worldview” in there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by Faith, posted 09-18-2019 11:16 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 834 by Faith, posted 09-18-2019 12:39 PM PaulK has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 832 of 862 (863002)
09-18-2019 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 828 by Faith
09-18-2019 10:40 AM


reality wins every time
Which still has NOTHING to do with the facts or reality.

The point is that all of the evidence still shows that humans have created every God ever discussed, that Nazism/Fascism are Conservative not Liberal political and cultural creations and that Conservative Evangelical Protestant Christians in German were avid supporters of Hitler, his policies, the Fuehrer Principal and anti-Semites.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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 Message 828 by Faith, posted 09-18-2019 10:40 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12980
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 833 of 862 (863003)
09-18-2019 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 832 by jar
09-18-2019 11:56 AM


Re: reality wins every time
Every God, jar? How did humans create Jesus? How does all of the evidence point to this? Or is it just that you don't prefer the Jesus as marketed? Do you see the obvious attempts at anthropomorphization? You seem to agree with the group of scholars who accuse the religion of undergoing change, which to me simply means that you are biased. Both sides present a case unless you can prove to me that the apologists are lying. Why don't you believe their story? You once said that if the God that traditional apologetics marketed were real you would likely laugh at such a God. Why is this? Let's just suppose that Billy Graham's message was the Truth. What aspects of this truth would alienate you? What did your Mama warn you about? Why are they *all* snake oil salesmen? I only see evidence that some of them are, and I dont reject the story...likely because (according to you) it fits my fantasy. Do you reject the story because of the lack of evidence alone? Or would you likely reject it if there were evidence to support it?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 832 by jar, posted 09-18-2019 11:56 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 839 by jar, posted 09-18-2019 1:39 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 841 by Theodoric, posted 09-18-2019 2:04 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33271
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 834 of 862 (863005)
09-18-2019 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 831 by PaulK
09-18-2019 11:29 AM


Re: Eugenics and Darwin
Scientific theories don’t prescribe moral standards. And they shouldn’t.

And yet there we have Darwin talking about how we can derive a principle of helping the helpless from the ToE. And it's a pretty common thing one hears, it's not just Darwin. We got the argument of "altruism" as a moral principle from the ToE too. Whatever anyone wants to claim as a moral standard that can be attributed to evolution is going to be used as a moral standard derivable from the ToE. So it's really just empty words to claim science shouldn't be the basis for morality. REAL science, of course, but the ToE is NOT real science.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 831 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2019 11:29 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 835 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2019 1:06 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 835 of 862 (863008)
09-18-2019 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 834 by Faith
09-18-2019 12:39 PM


Re: Eugenics and Darwin
quote:
And yet there we have Darwin talking about how we can derive a principle of helping the helpless from the ToE.

Except that he isn’t really. He is urging it as a good thing but the theory doesn’t go all the way to proving that. And it certainly isn’t a part of the theory.

quote:
We got the argument of "altruism" as a moral principle from the ToE too.

No, at most we get an explanation of why we have altruistic impulses.

quote:
Whatever anyone wants to claim as a moral standard that can be attributed to evolution is going to be used as a moral standard derivable from the ToE. So it's really just empty words to claim science shouldn't be the basis for morality

The first statement doesn’t prove the second at all. In fact it hints at the fact that it doesn’t work.

quote:
REAL science, of course, but the ToE is NOT real science.

Of course evolution is real science, and your saying otherwise is just another example of your anti-scientific attitude.

But go on. Tell me what “REAL science” is a basis for morality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 834 by Faith, posted 09-18-2019 12:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 836 by Faith, posted 09-18-2019 1:15 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33271
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 836 of 862 (863009)
09-18-2019 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 835 by PaulK
09-18-2019 1:06 PM


Re: Eugenics and Darwin
Well I wouldn't argue that we get or could get any kind of moral system from the ToE, but when people argue that we've evolved this or that trait that favors sympathy or kindness or whatnot I'd say it's the best we could ever get from Science and after Science has told us our religious morality is all made up people naturally try to find some kind of standard in that Science anyway, however irrational or whimsical.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 835 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2019 1:06 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 837 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2019 1:19 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 837 of 862 (863010)
09-18-2019 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 836 by Faith
09-18-2019 1:15 PM


Re: Eugenics and Darwin
quote:
Well I wouldn't argue that we get or could get any kind of moral system from the ToE...

Except that you did.

quote:
...but when people argue that we've evolved this or that trait that favors sympathy or kindness or whatnot I'd say it's the best we could ever get from Science and after Science has told us our religious morality is all made up people naturally try to find some kind of standard in that Science anyway.

That, of course is contradictory. The religious reasons for morality may be made up (and given how dreadful they are that’s probably a good thing). But the science does explain why we have at least some of our moral values - which means that they are not simply made up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 836 by Faith, posted 09-18-2019 1:15 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 838 by Faith, posted 09-18-2019 1:24 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33271
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 838 of 862 (863011)
09-18-2019 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 837 by PaulK
09-18-2019 1:19 PM


Re: Eugenics and Darwin
A few tentative moral principles derived from a supposedly evolved trait that is far from universal and just a wild guess anyway is not a "moral system."

Religious morality is SO "dreadful" you say. Not lying, stealing, murdering, cheating on your spouse, coveting and so on is "dreadful?" Honoring one's parents is "dreadful?" Loving God and your neighbor is "dreadful?"

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 837 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2019 1:19 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 840 by PaulK, posted 09-18-2019 1:44 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 839 of 862 (863012)
09-18-2019 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 833 by Thugpreacha
09-18-2019 12:17 PM


Re: reality wins every time
Phat writes:

Every God, jar? How did humans create Jesus?

Phat, there is absolutely no evidence that Jesus (the specific Jesus mentioned in the New Testament) ever existed. The only reason anyone even knows about that character is through the stories humans wrote.

Phat writes:

You seem to agree with the group of scholars who accuse the religion of undergoing change, which to me simply means that you are biased.

But again, all of the evidence shows that Christianity, like all religions has not only changed over time but is still changing. If we look at what is written in the Bible, for example the tales of Paul's encounter or the Great Commission what we see are evolving and changing stories.

It is not scholars that accuse the religion of undergoing change but rather honesty and reality.

Phat writes:

Do you reject the story because of the lack of evidence alone?

WHAT story? There is no such thing as "The Story™" just as there is no such thing as "The Bible™" . There are stories and variations on stories and interpretations of stories.

But what is fact is that what is written in the stories is actually what is written in the stories.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 833 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-18-2019 12:17 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 840 of 862 (863013)
09-18-2019 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 838 by Faith
09-18-2019 1:24 PM


Re: Eugenics and Darwin
quote:
A few tentative moral principles derived from a supposedly evolved trait that is far from universal and just a wild guess anyway is not a "moral system."

Indeed. Yet you are still the one who kept talking about deriving morality from science.

quote:
Religious morality is SO "dreadful" you say.

No, I say the reasons supposedly underlying religious morality are often dreadful.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 838 by Faith, posted 09-18-2019 1:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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