Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9073 total)
531 online now:
AZPaul3, Tangle (2 members, 529 visitors)
Newest Member: MidwestPaul
Post Volume: Total: 893,315 Year: 4,427/6,534 Month: 641/900 Week: 165/182 Day: 45/27 Hour: 0/1

Announcements: Security Update Released


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Who Made God?
GDR
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 76 of 868 (689511)
01-31-2013 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by onifre
01-30-2013 11:36 PM


GDR writes:

I’m just saying that science has discovered some pretty miraculous things about this planet like QM and for that matter evolution.

onifre writes:

Maybe it's your own astonishment that's leading you to believe it's a miracle, or just a choice use of words to veer it toward the miraculous, but those who understand QM doen't call it miraculous. That would imply it's supernatural, and QM is very natural, predictable and testable.

I wasn’t implying that QM is supernatural. In the common vernacular the word miraculous is virtually synonymous with astonishing. QM may be predictable and testable but even 100 years ago its characteristics are something no one would have predicted.

GDR writes:

Sure, but of course it is my view that this isn’t all there is, and although our current form of existence is obviously finite that we are all part of something bigger and more lasting.

onifre writes:

But if we're going to exist beyond the physical world in you r opinion, if that's even possible or something that even makes sense, what's the point then of bringing up this physical universe and it's design qualities?
You said this universe seems designed, I pointed out that life has only existed for a tiny amount of time and will eventually be gone, and now you're telling me about another place where we'll go after that happens...and I'm imagining we'll be there for eternity. Ok, fine. So then, shouldn't your point be that we are actually designed for the afterlife, since we'll be there, well, forever?

Seeing as how we are the coffee house I guess we’re allowed to wander off topic.

The Biblical view is that all of creation will be renewed. (New heaven and new earth where God’s heavenly dimension and our earthly one somehow come together to form a new creation.) I think that the only way in this life that we can come to any understanding of that is through our science. I’ve used this quote several times on this forum before but it does help clarify my understanding of things. This was the headline for the lead story in “Scientific American” in the Nov. 2010 issue. “Hidden Worlds of Dark Matter – An Entire Universe May be Interwoven Silently With Our Own”.

Science seems to be coming to the conclusion that there is a greater reality that we are a part of. As science learns more and more about these things we may get a clearer picture of things so that much of what we call supernatural now will become natural to us in the way that QM has.

In answer to your question then is that my belief is that in ways that are currently beyond our understanding, our lives here are part of something bigger and better that we are ultimately designed but that our lives play an important part in building for that greater eventuality.

I’ll carry on rambling for a bit here. One of the things I find fascinating as I get older is the sense that I’m not. My body is aging, life experience and new knowledge and understanding changes my views but essentially there is understanding that the essential “I” isn’t really aging at all. It is hard to explain but I deal a lot with seniors as a volunteer. One friend is 101 years old. His wife passed away about 3 years ago and he now has a girl friend. He talks about going to silent movies as a kid and instead of watching the movie he would watch the piano player who would play mood music to fit what was on the screen. In our conversations we both agree that in our hearts we are no different than we were in our twenties. We agreed that although our bodies get older we don’t.

onifre writes:

Well, isn't it a by-product of an evolution you clearly agree happened? Even if you believe th e God of the Christian Bible gave it to us, you would have to agree that he did so through the process of evolution and we've developed it (intelligence and morality) to the levels you find today throughout the world.
How else do you believe it would have happened if not like that?

I agree but I would add that I believe that what we call conscience is God prompting our hearts and minds.

onifre writes:

I get to be Percy in the next life!

That has put a smile on my face all morning.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by onifre, posted 01-30-2013 11:36 PM onifre has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19537
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 77 of 868 (689513)
01-31-2013 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
01-31-2013 2:56 AM


Re: Evidence
Faith writes:

The Bible was never "found to fail" except by people who wanted it to fail....


That isn't true. I always wanted the Bible to succeed - but the more I tried to prove it was true, the more it failed. The only way to see it as "true" is with your eyes shut.

Faith writes:

It's ALL witness testimony....


At best, it's hearsay. Even our justice system, which is much less rigorous than science, wouldn't accept it as evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 01-31-2013 2:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 01-31-2013 12:11 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 683 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 78 of 868 (689514)
01-31-2013 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ramoss
01-31-2013 8:41 AM


Re: Evidence
It's a lie that the gospels were written that late but you prefer the lie to the truth that has been believed by millions for millennia. The message of the Bible is simple: Believe. The evidence has been given and on the basis of that you are to "believe." But if you tear the evidence to shreds and believe the lie instead, you aren't going to be happy when you finally find out the truth.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ramoss, posted 01-31-2013 8:41 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ramoss, posted 01-31-2013 8:52 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 683 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 868 (689515)
01-31-2013 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by PaulK
01-31-2013 3:29 AM


Re: Evidence
God doesn't support trusting the "experts," He said simply "Believe" -- Believe HIM, believe His word -- and He HAS given sufficient evidence for that. But you'd rather believe self-appointed experts apparently. Too bad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by PaulK, posted 01-31-2013 3:29 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by PaulK, posted 01-31-2013 1:10 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 683 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 80 of 868 (689516)
01-31-2013 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
01-31-2013 12:01 PM


Re: Evidence
Sad. Well, God has to open your eyes to the truth. I guess all I can do is pray for that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 01-31-2013 12:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by ramoss, posted 01-31-2013 8:57 PM Faith has taken no action
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 02-01-2013 10:56 AM Faith has taken no action

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


(3)
Message 81 of 868 (689518)
01-31-2013 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by GDR
01-30-2013 7:46 PM


Re: Should God be slanged or kept to oneself?
I can say the same thing about the atheistic POV.

The atheist POV is not a positive claim, so it is quite different. Theists are making the positive claim, and have yet to support that claim with positive evidence. The atheist POV is simply pointing that out.

The fact still remains that evolution ticks along in much the same way that an assembly line does, and it is my unprovable belief that just as the assembly line required intelligence in order for it to produce cars that it is analogous to believe that intelligence was required for evolution.

I think this illustrates the differences in our outlook. For the theist, there needs to be a purpose behind nature. Us humans need to be the ultimate expression of what nature was meant to do. This is a faith based belief, one that has not been supported by evidence and is believed to be true because it is comforting.

Atheism, on the other hand, views humans as one of millions of examples of what nature produces. We are no more the purpose of the universe than a rock on Mars. The universe is indifferent to our existence. What purpose we do find is purpose that we invent.

This is why atheists see God as being made by humans, IMHO.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by GDR, posted 01-30-2013 7:46 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 01-31-2013 1:00 PM Taq has replied
 Message 89 by GDR, posted 01-31-2013 8:58 PM Taq has taken no action

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 683 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 82 of 868 (689519)
01-31-2013 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Taq
01-31-2013 12:37 PM


Re: Should God be slanged or kept to oneself?
Theists are making the positive claim, and have yet to support that claim with positive evidence.

This is a lie. Bible believers have tons of evidence, though "theists" may not.

As for the rest, you guys just make up crap to explain away why believers believe. It has NOTHING to do with WANTING to believe and it has NOTHING to do with "comfort." As Dietrich Bonhoeffer put it, "Come to Christ and die." That's not comfort. What happened when I became a believer? I became the target of ridicule and slander such as I encounter at EvC. I get regularly called a moron, my arguments get called stupid, I'm made the butt of jokes. Comfort, ha! Half of you here would be afraid to even try to believe realizing the sort of crap that's going to be thrown at you as a result. Just trembling in your little evolution-built skins.

I didn't believe because I "needed a purpose," I believed because I found the evidence convincing, I believed because I believed it to be TRUE.

Of course I don't know what motivates GDR, too much pride to go with the despised "fundamentalists" perhapsk, so he picks the nice stuff that's going to get him compliments.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Taq, posted 01-31-2013 12:37 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Taq, posted 01-31-2013 3:30 PM Faith has replied
 Message 90 by GDR, posted 01-31-2013 9:11 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 83 of 868 (689520)
01-31-2013 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
01-31-2013 12:10 PM


Re: Evidence
quote:

God doesn't support trusting the "experts," He said simply "Believe" -- Believe HIM, believe His word -- and He HAS given sufficient evidence for that. But you'd rather believe self-appointed experts apparently. Too bad.

Your posts certainly contain plenty of evidence that your religion is false. Which is one more reason for not joining it. If you aren't even aware of the evidence enough to discuss it , why should I take your opinions seriously ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 01-31-2013 12:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 01-31-2013 11:16 PM PaulK has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4071
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 84 of 868 (689521)
01-31-2013 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Faith
01-30-2013 8:17 PM


Play Fair
Faith writes:

So you've eliminated that evidence from usefulness to you.

...

But once you start denying this part or that part eventually you'll make it all useless to you.

...

The Bible IS evidence, but of course you can discount it.

That's just it though. I don't eliminate anything, or deny anything or discount anything.
In fact, I accept all the evidence you've mentioned. It's just that there's equal forms of evidence for all sorts of religions and non-religions. I accept that as well, because I need to be fair.

There's just nothing about the Christian evidence that puts it ahead of any of the other evidence from other religions and non-religions.

those who died willingly in the millions under torture for their faith, that I'd have to count as solid evidence too, millions more witnesses. (No, I don't think blowing yourself up for Allah compares).

...

Oh no there are not. Nothing that qualifies as a real miracle such as the Bible reports on

You seem to discount the Islam religion and their evidences for being correct.
That's not being fair.

Faith writes:

Stile writes:

I don't think you're an idiot. I just think you can't describe an actual difference between believers and unbelievers.

That's sad if so. I know I changed enormously when I became a believer but I also know I have a long way to go to be conformed to Christ. But the things you mention, being happy or sad, rich or poor, aren't differences I'd expect to see. If they are true believers, however, there should be a real joy beneath the surface sadness.

I see lots of "true believers" with real joy beneath the surface sadness.
I see lots of true believers with real joy just on it's own, even.
I also see lots of unbelievers with real joy beneath the surface sadness.
I also see lots of unbelievers with real joy just on it's own.

If you really think there's something different about Christian joy, please make an attempt to describe it. So far, you've simply described teh exact same joy everyone else has. "Real joy."

I personally do not believe in the Christian God as described in the Bible.
I personally do have real joy, and I do not think I have a surface sadness.

But, if there's actually something you think I'm missing, please continue. You may want to try here, though... there's a whole thread on it where no one has yet to identify anything that "true believers" possess that anyone else cannot obtain through other, non-Godly means.

What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?

Faith writes:

But this is impossible. There is no way to scientifically verify a miracle.

But it's not impossible, not for an all powerful God. I could do it, if I had enough power. I would simply make some thing vanish and reappear randomly, over and over. Scientists could study it for as long as they wanted. They would never be able to explain it scientifically. It would be a scientifically verifiable miracle.

Faith writes:

Stile writes:

TL/DR - I've never met a fair and trustworthy God-witness who has convincing evidence for believing in God. If you know of one, feel free to point them out. Without such a thing, it certainly seems to me like we've gotten it backwards. God didn't make people, people made God.

Now it sounds like you've made up your mind about all this. Until now it wasn't that clear.

Sorry, "TL/DR" means "Too Long/Didn't Read", it's simply meant as a minor synopsis at the end of a long post. It wasn't mean to sound final, that's why I used the world "seems" and asked you if you knew anyone to offer as a fair and trustworty God-witness with convincing evidence.

What do you think of John Bunyan who wrote Pilgrim's Progress? Did he have convincing proof when he refused the deal given him to be set free from prison if he gave up preaching, even though by staying in prison he committed his family to God?

No, that doesn't sound convincing.
Let's be fair, there are plenty of people who have very similar stories except they do not say it was God. They sometimes say it was Allah, or any other God they believe in. They sometimes say it wasn't a God at all and simply people being magnificent people. That's why it isn't convincing. We need to be fair and look at all the stories, not just the ones you want to look at.

What sort of evidence do you think you want anyway? Would you believe any of the martyrs described in Foxes Book of Martyrs or just dismiss them as deluded?

I would not dismiss them as deluded.
I would accept this as evidence. I would also be fair and accept the evidence of the martyrs for other causes, religions and non-religions as well. Again, when we're fair, it's simply not convincing.

Would you consider this evidence? A Russian woman was about to be clubbed over the head...

I would consider it evidence, yes.
But, again, we need to be fair.
So, we look at other stories as well.
And, we find very similar stories all over the world throughout every culture. Some are attributed to God, others to Allah, others to other Gods, others to magnificent people and others to "I don't know what happened."
Therefore, again, it's not very convincing.

Let's just try to be fair, don't you think that's a good goal?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Faith, posted 01-30-2013 8:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 01-31-2013 11:21 PM Stile has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 85 of 868 (689522)
01-31-2013 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Tangle
01-31-2013 8:53 AM


Re: What Constitutes Evidence?
GDR writes:

Just because you keep saying it doesn’t make it true. We do not know that an unguided process of evolution created intelligence and morality.

Tangle writes:

It's not me that's saying it - it's published science. Stacks of it.

We know that an unguided process of evolution produced all life on this planet including us. It produced many intelligent life forms, one of which, us, has developed it to a relatively high level.

We observe the evolutionary process. We can observe natural selection at work which definitely appears to be unguided but beyond that we don't know if the process is guided or designed. There is no answer as to how abiogenesis took place, (which we may be able to determine eventually), but we can only form philosophical or theological conclusions as to why we exist at all, let alone with intelligence and morality. Your view that it is just a natural progression from mindless, apparently non-dimensional or one-dimensional particles whereas it is my view is that we are the result of a pre-existing intelligence. Neither is provable.

Tangle writes:

Our moral sense is a necessary part of social development and is an emotion developed from empathy - which is seen in other primates.

Morality isn't what we do. Morality is about having a heart that is prepared to put the interest of others at least on a level with our own interest, but even more to put the interest of others before ourselves. What we do flows from our morality.

The fact that we can observe what appears to be moral behaviour in other primates is what I would expect of a moral creator.

Tangle writes:

The alternative is that some unknown god created an enormous universe 14bn years ago, left it alone to see what would happen then plonked intelligence and morality into an ape on one remote planet about quarter of a million years ago.

I choose the former because there is evidence to support it.
The latter is without any supporting evidence whatsoever.

Well we disagree about the evidence thing and there isn't much point in rehashing all that. However a big part of your view of Christianity or Theism revolves around time. From our vantage point we only know one way of experiencing change and we call it time. If you read my initial posts in this thread it seems according to modern science that there may be other ways of experiencing change with one or more additional time dimensions.

The early Christians understood this to some degree. In 2nd Peter I think it is, he talks about a thousand years to God is like a day to us.

Tangle writes:

My point is that Gods are invented by pretty much all societies - they're all different but they have a lot in common. The majority promise an afterlife if certain rules are met - mostly about only worshipping the correct god which just happens to be the one your tribe worship and not behaving anti-socially.

In one sense it isn't that we worship different gods it is that we have different understandings about the nature of God. Even amongst Christians there are considerable differences. It is my contention that there has to be ambiguity if we are to have free will.

The view as espoused by Jesus in the Gospels is not that it is about having the correct theology that makes you right with God. It is about having hearts that love. Christ does say that God will change our hearts if we open them up to His message of love and forgiveness.

Tangle writes:

To accept this god idea, it's necessary to believe that you (ie the human species, not GDR) are special - god loves love or has a plan for you, takes an interest in you and so on. Without this hubris, we'd just be another animal doomed to die - we need to believe we're special. If there's a god looking after us, then we must be special mustn't we.

I don't see it that way. In the first place we read this in Paul's letter to the Ephesians.

quote:
9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

I don't like cherry picking Bible verses but I contend that what Paul says here is generally consistent with the overall Biblical message.

Paul does say that new creation is for all creation, which presumably would include all life. The point isn't that we are special. The point is that we have been given the job of managing this planet and reflecting God's love and care for the creation into it. I know we aren't doing much of a job of it, but generally I think that we are improving with time.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2013 8:53 AM Tangle has taken no action

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


(2)
Message 86 of 868 (689523)
01-31-2013 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
01-31-2013 1:00 PM


Re: Should God be slanged or kept to oneself?
This is a lie. Bible believers have tons of evidence, though "theists" may not.

Why do theists always fail to bring this evidence to the forefront in threads that are asking for it?

What happened when I became a believer? I became the target of ridicule and slander such as I encounter at EvC.

And yet you keep coming back. Why? It justifies your beliefs. In your mind, the more people attack you the more correct you are. I have seen this same thought process in many, many christians. They actually seek out persecution, both imaginary and real.

I didn't believe because I "needed a purpose," I believed because I found the evidence convincing, I believed because I believed it to be TRUE.

Another claim of having evidence without any presented. This is why atheists are utterly unconvinced.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 01-31-2013 1:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 01-31-2013 11:22 PM Taq has taken no action

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3225
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 87 of 868 (689531)
01-31-2013 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
01-31-2013 12:08 PM


Re: Evidence
Now, I object to being called a liar. .. particularly when I give accurate and truthful information.

I can do something that I don't see you being able to do.. and that is BACK UP MY CLAIMS.

For example.. the Gospel of Mark.

According to the church fathers.. , you know, the people that have reason to make it as early as possible, mark was written by the disciple of Peter after Paul and Peter died. That is about 65 C.E.. so that makes the writing of Mark to be 65 at the earliest.
Matthew and Luke copied from Mark (read up on the 'synoptic problem'.

It is sort of sad when such a faithful believer doesn't even know the historiy of their own scriptures.

And all you have to show for it is the rather childish and immature threat (as well as being powerless) of 'you aren't going to be happy when you find the truth'?? Come on.. do you honestly think that will convince a skeptic? That is sort of like someone being brought up by a single mom telling someone 'my daddy will beat you up when he gets home'.

Edited by ramoss, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 01-31-2013 12:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 01-31-2013 11:24 PM ramoss has replied

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3225
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 88 of 868 (689533)
01-31-2013 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
01-31-2013 12:11 PM


Re: Evidence
I see you are trying to order God around. Of course, your prayers, and your curses arrive at the same thing.. absolutely nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 01-31-2013 12:11 PM Faith has taken no action

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 89 of 868 (689534)
01-31-2013 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Taq
01-31-2013 12:37 PM


Re: Should God be slanged or kept to oneself?
Taq writes:

The atheist POV is not a positive claim, so it is quite different. Theists are making the positive claim, and have yet to support that claim with positive evidence. The atheist POV is simply pointing that out. The fact still remains that evolution ticks along in much the same way that an assembly line does, and it is my unprovable belief that just as the assembly line required intelligence in order for it to produce cars that it is analogous to believe that intelligence was required for evolution.

Taq writes:

I think this illustrates the differences in our outlook. For the theist, there needs to be a purpose behind nature. Us humans need to be the ultimate expression of what nature was meant to do. This is a faith based belief, one that has not been supported by evidence and is believed to be true because it is comforting.

Frankly I’m not looking for comfort and I’m not saying that there needs to be purpose. I really am simply interested in the attempting to determine what the ultimate truth is. I accept at the outset that none of us will know the truth in the sense that we know that I have 10 toes. None of us have all the truth and I have no doubt that some things I believe are wrong. Frankly, though I am strongly convinced of the truth of my basic Christian beliefs even though I am not able to prove them. If there was proof we would all be Christian and then what would we argue about.

I agree that people can and do find comfort and purpose in the Christian faith but there is nothing wrong with that. It does seem to me though that as humans we all look for comfort and purpose. We look to families for comfort and purpose, we look to employment for comfort and purpose etc. It seems to me that if we look for comfort and purpose in the things that we do know about, that it might be seen as an indication that we are here for some greater cosmic purpose.

Taq writes:

This is why atheists see God as being made by humans, IMHO.

I agree that as humans we are all different and as a result yes we do instinctively create a god in our own image. It is my belief though that God does work through our hearts, minds and imaginations to continually draw us closer to His true nature. From our vantage point it does seem to be a long drawn out process.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Taq, posted 01-31-2013 12:37 PM Taq has taken no action

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 191 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 90 of 868 (689536)
01-31-2013 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
01-31-2013 1:00 PM


Re: Should God be slanged or kept to oneself?
Faith writes:

Of course I don't know what motivates GDR, too much pride to go with the despised "fundamentalists" perhapsk, so he picks the nice stuff that's going to get him compliments.

Interesting. If I don't agree with you then I am being prideful. That POV does seem more than a little prideful in itself don't you think. Also, I certainly don't despise fundamentalists, I simply disagree with them. As I said, most of the fundamentalists that I know are people who are actively serving God in their communities and around the world. I just think that their theology is out of whack.

The big difference in our beliefs is that your faith is based on an inerrant Bible whereas my faith is based on the resurrection of Jesus and in His message that His early followers recorded, to the best of their ability.

I agree that to understand Jesus properly, after all He was Jewish, we need the OT as Jesus constantly referred back to it, but also Yahweh in the OT we have to look at it through the filter of the message that we receive from Jesus.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 01-31-2013 1:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 01-31-2013 11:27 PM GDR has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022