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Author Topic:   Is Intelligent Design An Open Movement?
ringo
Member
Posts: 17908
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 10 of 91 (689133)
01-28-2013 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Spiritual Anarchist
01-27-2013 7:17 PM


Spiritual Anarchist writes:

Is the Intelligent Design Movement open to Pantheism or other view points beside Christianity?


There are some people (including one or two members of EvC) who propose that the idea of Intelligent Design can be approached scientifically. But scientific inquiry is the last thing that the Intelligent Design movement wants. The Intelligent Design movement is not open to anything but its own dogma.

Spiritual Anarchist writes:

I feel like I must choose a false Dichotomy in this debate between a meaningless Universe with no room for souls,freewill etc or belief in some Tribal Deity of the Canaanites.


Accepting science - e.g. accepting that evolution did happen - does not require a "meaningless universe". In fact, many of us believe that "meaning" is more meaningful if we decide for ourselves what it is instead of having it spoonfed to us by some spook.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Spiritual Anarchist, posted 01-27-2013 7:17 PM Spiritual Anarchist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Spiritual Anarchist, posted 01-28-2013 7:06 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17908
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 22 of 91 (689287)
01-29-2013 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Spiritual Anarchist
01-28-2013 7:06 PM


Re: New Movement
Spiritual Anarchist writes:

And the ID proponents description of "Guidance" has nothing to do with seeing intelligence in nature or design. Design and Guidance are 2 different things anyway.


Maybe you could clarify what you see as the difference between design and guidance. I often remind IDists that designers (and/or guides) can only work with existing natural processes. As far as I can see, they both have at least that one constraint in common.

Maybe "Intelligent Design" is just not the right terminology for what you envision. (Intelligence doesn't seem to be an appropriate trait for a transpersonal pan-god, does it?)


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 Message 15 by Spiritual Anarchist, posted 01-28-2013 7:06 PM Spiritual Anarchist has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17908
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 43 of 91 (689510)
01-31-2013 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Genomicus
01-29-2013 3:31 PM


Allow me to subtly Godwinize the thread....
Genomicus writes:

The reason I use the ID moniker is because it's a phrase that accurately describes my general position.


If "National Socialist" accurately described my general position, I probably still wouldn't use it to describe myself.

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 Message 28 by Genomicus, posted 01-29-2013 3:31 PM Genomicus has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17908
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 60 of 91 (689668)
02-02-2013 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Genomicus
02-01-2013 11:51 PM


Re: ID is Christian
Genomicus writes:

By "created," do you mean a term synonymous with engineering? Or do you mean something more similar to a magic-poofing-mechanism?


To me, "created" implies "creator" and "intelligent design" implies "superior intelligence". Whether that creator/intelligence used a wrench or a magic wand is not particularly relevant.

My own personal objection to the idea of "intelligent design" is the fact that intelligence only works with existing processes. If your "designer" is just using as-yet-unknown technology to manipulate those processes, then you're talking science fiction. If he's also creating the processes, you're talking religion. Neither alternative is scientific.


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 Message 53 by Genomicus, posted 02-01-2013 11:51 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17908
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 62 of 91 (689670)
02-02-2013 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Genomicus
02-02-2013 12:04 PM


Re: ID is Christian
Genomicus writes:

In other words, since the wrench is a tool in the physical world, used by physical designers, the wrench might very well impart an indelible stamp on the designed artifact. On the other hand, if magic was used, we would have no hope of detecting design through the methods of science.


To a "primitive" people, a flashlight is magic. Whether or not something can be detected through the methods of science is a function of the current capabilities of science. There is no real distinction between magic and technology. Maybe someday a device to materialize a rabbit in a hat will be readily available at Wal-mart.

Genomicus writes:

The intelligent design scenario that I'm proposing involve known mechanisms of engineering.


So you're basically trying to ouflank SETI. Instead of direct communication with (from) extraterrestrial intelligence, you're looking for indirect signs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Genomicus, posted 02-02-2013 12:04 PM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Genomicus, posted 02-02-2013 12:34 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17908
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 64 of 91 (689673)
02-02-2013 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Genomicus
02-02-2013 12:34 PM


Re: ID is Christian
Genomicus writes:

... if someone says life was designed by magic, then that idea is outside the realm of current scientific knowledge.


If somebody say life was designed by magic, it means they think it's outside the realm of scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Genomicus, posted 02-02-2013 12:34 PM Genomicus has acknowledged this reply

  
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