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Author Topic:   The Origin of Novelty
Tangle
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Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 40 of 871 (689791)
02-04-2013 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dr Adequate
02-04-2013 4:41 PM


Re: To Bluegenes and Taq
I think Percy's just trying to protect BD a little, Dr A.
There's going to be one helluva dogpile on this as it's the hoariest, oldest, crappies argument since Darwin first mentioned it. It's going to be a car crash unless controlled a little. Well, it's going t o be a car crash anyway - it's just a question of what speed it happens at.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2013 4:41 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2013 6:16 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 42 of 871 (689805)
02-04-2013 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Dr Adequate
02-04-2013 6:16 PM


Re: To Bluegenes and Taq
Oh, I dunno. Personally I'd rather hear your one-liners than sit through a 2 week pile of pre-ordaned, pre-rehearsed, multiply repeated bollocks, but it ain't my forum.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 117 of 871 (690285)
02-11-2013 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Blue Jay
02-11-2013 11:26 AM


Blue Jay writes:
You have to admit that, on face value, it does seem uncannily fortuitous.
I think this is the crux of it.
Kipling's Just So stories appear at times to be as good an explanation to the sceptical as those that biologists often put forward.
The truth is that we don't know how the giraffe got its neck or the zebra its stripes and in the process of speculation - it's really not much more than that - we appear to give the impression of scientific certainty.
What we do have in the place of testable evidence for a particular organ development or physiological feature is a massive amount of information from a variety of disciplines that prove that the overall case for evolution is sound. This allows us to reasonably infer an evolutionary pathway without actually having the evidence to prove it end to end.
In other threads we've looked for actual genetic evidence for the creation of novel features and found it extremely hard to pin it to the wall in a totally convincing way. We're not far away now, so instead of trying to show by inference things that must have happened thousands of millions of years ago, we should spend most of our time trying to find modern mutation and the genetic pathways that caused them.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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 Message 108 by Blue Jay, posted 02-11-2013 11:26 AM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 168 of 871 (690944)
02-18-2013 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by mindspawn
02-18-2013 1:12 AM


Mindspawn writes:
But I believe biological life is restricted to the last 6500 years
Right, so did it all get wiped out a couple of thousand years later by the flood too?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 179 of 871 (690977)
02-18-2013 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by mindspawn
02-18-2013 3:45 PM


You see, if the flood wiped out pretty much all life about 2,000 years after the miracle 6,500 years ago - then we've only got 4,500 years to play with. Just a detail.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Tangle
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Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 328 of 871 (691352)
02-22-2013 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by mindspawn
02-22-2013 6:39 AM


mindspawn writes:
I don't see any logic in that line of reasoning. If there was an intelligent designer, and He did create all life-forms 6500 years ago, there is nothing in the observance of phenotypes or genotypes that contradicts this view.
Each time you say this I ask if he destroyed his creation 2,000 years later because this has significant evolutionary consequences, but each time I get no answer. Would you like to answer it now?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 429 of 871 (691503)
02-22-2013 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 426 by Dr Adequate
02-22-2013 3:58 PM


Re: Balderdash the Game
Dr A writes:
Actually, I wonder if that's evidence that he's a deliberate troll.
Of course he's a troll.
For God sake, Chimp beards, dwarfs ......

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 426 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-22-2013 3:58 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 721 of 871 (693376)
03-14-2013 6:21 PM


There was a report today about how bed bugs have developed immunity to insectacides.
Bed bugs 'dodge insecticides' with molecular tricks - BBC News
The radio report spoke of mutations causing the immunities and suggested that they had been isolated.
Anyone able to track down and understand the original research?
ABE
Abstract
We previously reported high deltamethrin resistance in bed bugs, Cimex lectularius, collected from multiple areas of the United States (Romero et al., 2007). Recently, two mutations, the Valine to Leucine mutation (V419L) and the Leucine to Isoleucine mutation (L925I) in voltage-gated sodium channel α-subunit gene, had been identified to be responsible for knockdown resistance (kdr) to deltamethrin in bed bugs collected from New York (Yoon et al., 2008). The current study was undertaken to investigate the distribution of these two kdr mutations in 110 bed bug populations collected in the United States. Out of the 17 bed bug populations that were assayed for deltamethrin susceptibility, two resistant populations collected in the Cincinnati area and three deltamethrin-susceptible lab colonies showed neither of the two reported mutations (haplotype A). The remaining 12 populations contained L925I or both V419L and L925I mutations in voltage-gated sodium channel α-subunit gene (haplotypes B&C). In 93 populations that were not assayed for deltamethrin susceptibility, 12 contained neither of the two mutations (haplotype A) and 81 contained L925I or V419L or both mutations (haplotypes B-D). Thus, 88% of the bed bug populations collected showed target-site mutations. These data suggest that deltamethrin resistance conferred by target-site insensitivity of sodium channel is widely spread in bed bug populations across the United States. 2010 Wiley Periodicals, Inc.
Just a moment...
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 725 of 871 (693445)
03-15-2013 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 724 by Blue Jay
03-15-2013 12:09 PM


Re: Ask Blue Jay!
Do you think that it's a decent example of a known mutation leading to a new feature?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 730 of 871 (693497)
03-16-2013 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 729 by mindspawn
03-16-2013 10:14 AM


Re: Evidence again
mindspawn writes:
i do want to discuss mutation, have specifically requested a few times in this thread that we do discuss mutation. It evolutionists fixation with mutations that seems to blind you to other possiblities when you see two populations that vary. Its obvious that through sexual reproduction new allele frequencies can become common. To assume a positive mutation rather than a rare allelle becoming common is to take the LESS likely conclusion. Allele frequencies change even seasonally with flies, and so why assume a mutation when we have a common mechanism that would show the same results.
Well I posted a very recent study of bed bug insecticide resistance which, according to the biologists who worked on it, has been caused by mutations. But so far you haven't discussed it.
This is all well above my pay grade, but this extract seems clear to me.
Pyrethroid insecticides target the sodium channels within the insect nervous system. Point mutations in the sodium channels, termed the kdr mutations, reduce or eliminate the binding affinity of insecticides to sodium channels causing insecticide resistance6. Two mutations, V419L and L925I, in voltage-gated sodium channel α-subunit gene had been identified as very important substitutions responsible for deltamethrin resistance in bed bugs21, 30. A causal link between one or both mutations and deltamethrin resistance was reported21. A dual-primer Allele-Specific PCR (dASPCR) approach was developed to identify these two kdr mutations. Two PCR reactions performed with Susceptible Allele-Specific Primer (SASP) and Resistant Allele-Specific Primer (RASP) primers conclusively show status of kdr mutations (Fig. 2A).
Bed bugs evolved unique adaptive strategy to resist pyrethroid insecticides | Scientific Reports

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 729 by mindspawn, posted 03-16-2013 10:14 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 805 of 871 (696184)
04-13-2013 5:47 AM


Do it for me - mindspawn can catch up (or not) ;-)

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

  
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