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Author Topic:   If a mythical creature such as a griffin existed.....
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 52 (690682)
02-15-2013 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Panda
02-14-2013 6:44 PM


Re: Can dragons talk?
Heh, yeah, I was going to reply that if a griffin existed, then we'd find examples of its ancestors in the fossil record and end up figuring out an evolutionary path for it, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Panda, posted 02-14-2013 6:44 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-15-2013 11:28 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 32 by Panda, posted 02-15-2013 12:50 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 26 of 52 (690696)
02-15-2013 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Dr Adequate
02-15-2013 11:28 AM


Re: Can dragons talk?
Yes, well, we haven't found those fossils. And we've had plenty of time to do so.
That's because there's no such thing as griffons...
If there were griffons, then they'd have evolved just like everything else. That's how animals emerge on this planet.
The other problem is that a griffin is chimeric, it has the head and wings of an eagle and the body of a lion. Stuck together. Even assuming the existence of undiscovered fossil tetrapods which are actually hexapods, the independent evolution of the head, beak wings, and feathers of an eagle, and the body of a lion, would boggle the mind.
Only because that stuff hasn't actually happened. If there were animals that evolved that way then it wouldn't be so mind-bottling.
I'd say it would be exactly the sort of thing that God should have made if he wanted me to be a creationist. Darwin would have given up and gone home.
Okay, well sure. If god magically poofed an animal into existence, then yes, that animal wouldn't have evolved.
We'd still have all the examples of animals evolving that we do have, like horses and whales and people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-15-2013 11:28 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-15-2013 12:04 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 52 (690705)
02-15-2013 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Dr Adequate
02-15-2013 12:04 PM


Re: Can dragons talk?
Would the process that produced the griffin look so kindly on us as to ensure that every non-evolved thing was so flagrantly non-evolved that we could spot it?
I think so, otherwise we'd have the fossils n'stuff that'd show us an evolutionary path.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-15-2013 12:04 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-15-2013 12:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 52 (690712)
02-15-2013 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Dr Adequate
02-15-2013 12:29 PM


Re: Can dragons talk?
I'm not sure I quite follow you.
A griffon would be so obviously not-evolved that it wouldn't really cast doubt on the things that so obviously are-evolved. But I suppose there'd be creatures that we'd have to doubt if they evolved too.
previous message writes:
It would be, within the context of the theory of evolution as it stands. The function of the theory (as opposed to the mere fact) of evolution is to place constraints on what can and can't evolve. A griffin can't. Even if we had a good set of intermediate forms, we would still have no theoretical idea that would explain how the griffin could be a chimera of two existing forms with lines of descent separate from one another and from that of the griffin.
Ok, I feel ya. The duck-billed platypus doesn't really have the same bill as a duck, there's just a superficial resemblance. If the griffon wasn't like that, and it really was as you describe, then yeah, we would have a bit of a problem.
But faced with a flagrant chimera, could we be certain any more that these intermediate forms were relics of evolutionary transitions? Could not Archaeopteryx, for example, be not a representative of a transition between dinosaurs and modern birds, but a chimera formed by non-evolutionary processes?
We already know that birds evolved from dinosaurs, so Archy fits in there. But if she had mammary glands, then yeah, we would have a bit of a problem.
I don't think the ToE would be refuted in the sense that it still does describe the way that things do evolve. But you're right that there'd be some new doubts about whether or not everything evolved once we found a creature that we know didn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-15-2013 12:29 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-15-2013 12:46 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
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