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Author Topic:   Is Evolution a Radical Idea?
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 46 of 195 (350498)
09-19-2006 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by nator
09-19-2006 9:18 PM


'Welcome, Science. Sit down and have some rice noodes.'
Schraf says the explanations of science 'don't seem to bother the Buddhists.'
That's right. They don't.
And Taoism traditionally holds scholarship in high regard.
Respect for science falls right in.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by nator, posted 09-19-2006 9:18 PM nator has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 60 of 195 (350662)
09-20-2006 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by robinrohan
09-20-2006 8:06 AM


robinrohan:
Eastern religions are vague: vagueness can accomodate anything.
What one makes no effort to understand can often seem vague.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by robinrohan, posted 09-20-2006 8:06 AM robinrohan has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 84 of 195 (351026)
09-21-2006 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by robinrohan
09-20-2006 3:04 PM


Theory of 'Evolutionism'
robinrohan:
Well, the ideas of evolutionism are very plausible, so it's not a very good straw man. It's just a matter of looking at the way nature works as a whole.
Where did you get the idea the theory of evolution explains 'the way nature works as a whole'? The theory addresses changes in living things--on this planet--over time. Many other theories exist in science that you neglected to mention: plate tectonics, Hubble's theory of the expanding universe, and Einstein's theory of relativity, just to name a few. None purport to explain 'the way nature works as a whole.'
Anyway, you're talking about a scientific theory, not a manifesto. Where do you get a silly term like evolutionism? Scientists don't talk about 'evolutionism' any more than they talk about 'tectonicism' or 'expansionism' or 'relativism.' They talk about the theory of evolution.
'Evolutionism' isn't a term you got from a science book. It looks like a word someone would pick up in Sunday School.
_
Edited by Archer Opterix, : HTML.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : HTML.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by robinrohan, posted 09-20-2006 3:04 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by robinrohan, posted 09-21-2006 12:55 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 86 of 195 (351033)
09-21-2006 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by robinrohan
09-21-2006 12:55 PM


Re: Theory of 'Evolutionism'
robinrohan:
I was referring to those fields of science that are concerned with origins.
You mean fields like these?
Tectonics = Origins of earthquakes, volcanism, tsunamis, continents, oceans.
Astronomy = Origins of solar systems, stars, planets.
Relativity = Origins of nuclear energy, stars.
Medicine = Origins of diseases, treatments, cures.
Genetics = Origin of inherited biological traits.
Biogenesis = Origin of life.
Expanding Universe = Origin of just about everything.
(Run it backwards for 'Big Bang' theory.)
_
Edited by Archer Opterix, : HTML.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by robinrohan, posted 09-21-2006 12:55 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by robinrohan, posted 09-22-2006 5:37 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 109 of 195 (351230)
09-22-2006 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by robinrohan
09-22-2006 5:37 AM


science & religion
robinrohan:
I meant the origin of man, the origin of species, the origin of life, the origin of the universe.
ABE: all involve evolution in the loose sense of that word.
Sounds like you mean science.
Science with a capital S, perhaps (Also sprach Zarathustra), but science.
The paradigm, the process, the body of knowledge.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by robinrohan, posted 09-22-2006 5:37 AM robinrohan has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 168 of 195 (351627)
09-23-2006 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
09-22-2006 5:50 PM


Re: evolution and Christianity
Faith saith:
Nothing in the natural world contradicts the written revelation. Only the man-made ToE contradicts it.
Only that and the man-made theory of plate tectonics, and the man-made theory of the expanding universe, and the man-made theory of the speed of light, and the man-made theory of genetics, and the man-made theory of geology, and the man-made theory of archaeology, and the man-made theory of solar system formation, and the man-made theory of neurology, and the man-made theory of star formation, and the man-made theory of germs as a cause of illness...

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 09-22-2006 5:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 09-23-2006 6:26 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3623 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 184 of 195 (351722)
09-24-2006 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
09-23-2006 6:26 PM


Re: evolution and Christianity
Faith:
Well, of course, human originated science is naturally flawed, naturally likely to be at odds with the truth in some places, but most of it is not as fantastic as the ToE.
In the last generation YEC has eroded faster than a sand castle. No creationists in the 1980s spoke of 'speciation events' or conceded evolution of microorganisms and insects. They denied anyone could observe evolution in any form.
YEC has done some fast backpedaling in the years since.
You admit a good bit of evolution in your own scenarios. Sometimes you even require more of it to happen far faster than scientists have ever imagined--as when you need animals to hyperevolve into multiple forms after the Flood even as they lose their genetic potential to do so.
It's obvious the idea of evolution does not really strike you as 'fantastic' at all. You invoke it for your own purposes anytime you need it. You only say it is 'fantastic' because your religious teachers have taught you this theory represents some special kind of bugaboo you have a moral duty to oppose.
The ToE does contradict the written word of God
It does contradict a naive interpretation of it, yes.
and so do the time factors in the rest of what you list, but the practical sciences in general do not contradict it.
Much of the practice of medicine is based on evolution.
A Bible believing Christian has no problem with most of it. Astronomy is a problem
You bet.
great ages are a problem
For YEC 'great ages' represent a far bigger problem than the theory of evolution. It is the evident age of the earth and the universe, not the theory of evolution, that keeps YEC believers busiest inventing far-fetched scenarios.
but all the practical sciences are not.
Medicine and the theory of evolution are intricately linked. Only ignorance allows so many YEC believers to cast evolutionary science as evil and take their prescribed antibiotics at the same time.
Archaeology is not a problem though we may dispute some of its dates.
Archaeology knows of entire civilizations that came and went before YEC admits a planet existed for them to live on.
If you can think this is 'not a problem' for YEC the difference can only be one of scale. YEC has big problems indeed.
Neurology is no problem
The primitive brain and fight-or-flight mechanism corresponds to the physiology of many creatures outside our species. It is studied that way.
germ theory is no problem
Contradicts the biblical teaching that disease is caused by demons. Effects cures by attacking germs while making no effort at all to deal with demons.
genetics is no problem
Genetics dispelled for good the creationist premise that species existed in unique genetic boxes that did not change or overlap. It showed how all organisms are related to each other, more closely or more distantly as predicted by the theory.
Nowhere is this more plain than in the relationship of humans to animals. YEC believers said humans were utterly distinct. The theory of evolution said that Homo sapiens was related to all organisms and most closely related to apes.
Which idea won the genetic sweepstakes?
Evolution. You are 96% chimpanzee.
and 99% of geology is not a problem
So where do YEC believers put Pangea, the Tethys Sea, and Gondwanaland on their personal maps?
and most of astronomy too. Only the time factor.
Aside from that one little problem, Mrs Lincoln, how did you like the play?
Some day we'll understand how to put it all together, but we don't yet.
_
Edited by Archer Opterix, : HTML.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : HTML.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo repair.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 09-23-2006 6:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 09-24-2006 4:28 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

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