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Author Topic:   Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 916 of 1034 (759689)
06-14-2015 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 915 by Faith
06-14-2015 12:37 PM


Re: macroevolution not impossible -- it has been observed.
Faith writes:
I continue to think it possible that a daughter population of the same species could lose the ability to interbreed with the others.
We understand that you keep making such claims but can a human whose ancestors has lived for uncounted generations, hundreds of thousands of years, in Africa still breed with a human whose ancestors have lived in North America for at least ten thousand years?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 915 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 12:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 917 of 1034 (759691)
06-14-2015 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 915 by Faith
06-14-2015 12:37 PM


Re: macroevolution not impossible -- it has been observed.
quote:
I've given plenty of examples where it's observed.
No. You can't give any examples where it's been observed to happen. Simply examples where you assume that's what happened. That isn't the same thing.
So, the question is why can't you show that that happened. Why can't you point to new features in elephant seals, since they are one of your chosen examples and where the bottleneck occurred in historical time. Surely they should be a perfect example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 915 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 12:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 918 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 1:16 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 918 of 1034 (759694)
06-14-2015 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 917 by PaulK
06-14-2015 12:59 PM


Re: macroevolution not impossible -- it has been observed.
No. You can't give any examples where it's been observed to happen. Simply examples where you assume that's what happened. That isn't the same thing.
Where what has been observed to happen? Since you go on to the bottlenecked seals it's clear you have something completely differe3nt in mind than I've said.
So, the question is why can't you show that that happened. Why can't you point to new features in elephant seals, since they are one of your chosen examples and where the bottleneck occurred in historical time. Surely they should be a perfect example.
To ask that question means you don't understand anything I've said. I don't expect the bottlenecked seals to recover, it's the silly people who think mutations will come along and give bottlenecked creatures a new start who think they can. I don't think mutations do anything helpful AS A RULE, they may as the occasional fluke but that's about it. I don't expect the seal to recover genetically or the cheetah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 917 by PaulK, posted 06-14-2015 12:59 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 919 by PaulK, posted 06-14-2015 2:14 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 919 of 1034 (759697)
06-14-2015 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 918 by Faith
06-14-2015 1:16 PM


Re: macroevolution not impossible -- it has been observed.
quote:
Where what has been observed to happen? Since you go on to the bottlenecked seals it's clear you have something completely differe3nt in mind than I've said.
If you bothered to check the context you would see:
If the forces you've identified (genetic drift, new allele combinations) can produce significant phenotypic change in the absence of selection simply by isolating a small subpopulation, why is this never observed?
quote:
To ask that question means you don't understand anything I've said.
You don't think that a loss of alleles followed by drift produces new "species" ?
quote:
I don't expect the bottlenecked seals to recover
According to stated your views recovery would *inhibit* the appearance of new features. Is this an admission that in reality you think that new phenotypic features are usually produced by mutation ? Or is it the case that your objection is based on not reading what *I* wrote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 918 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 1:16 PM Faith has not replied

  
Admin
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Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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(1)
Message 920 of 1034 (759707)
06-14-2015 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 915 by Faith
06-14-2015 12:37 PM


Re: macroevolution not impossible -- it has been observed.
Faith writes:
...you...refuse to try to understand what I'm saying.
Everyone is trying very hard to understand you. The arguments you're making do not appear rational or consistent to other people. They're calling this to your attention and you're ignoring them by simply repeating your unsupported opinions and accusing them of not understanding you, which is why I've stepped in. Please stop playing the "no one understands me" card. Instead please try to address the questions and concerns being raised.
  • If the forces you've identified (genetic drift, new allele combinations) can produce significant phenotypic change in the absence of selection simply by isolating a small subpopulation, why is this never observed?
I've given plenty of examples where it's observed.
No you have not. You not only haven't provided plenty of examples, you haven't provided a single one. Unless you can provide evidence of simple isolation of a small subpopulation producing significant phenotypic change in the absence of selection, I'll have to disallow this claim in this thread.
About speciation you say:
There is no such thing as a genetically new species in the sense of macroevolution which speciation supposedly represents.
Okay, I think I can piece together a statement of your position on speciation now:
  • A new species can form from an existing species as long as the existing species possesses sufficient diversity, but the new species will remain genetically compatible with the original species, i.e., the new species will only have alleles already in the main population. This means that although interbreeding remains possible, it doesn't happen for either physical or behavioral reasons.
Is this correct?
If so then this is one route to speciation that I think everyone here can agree with, but it is incredibly uncommon since the ability to interbreed means the production of viable (not sterile) offspring. Lions and tigers can interbreed, but it's hit or miss and the offspring are usually sterile, so lions are tigers are not an example of the kind of speciation you describe. Horses and donkeys can interbreed, but are also not an example for the same reason. I know there are two genetically identical species of wasp that never interbreed because one always mates in the morning and the other in the evening, so there's one example for you.
But the key point is that this is a very uncommon route to speciation, and because it rejects the possibility of genetic change it doesn't explain the allelic diversity we see in life today. For example, the pig is unclean, and so there were only two pigs on the ark. The maximum number of alleles at any loci is therefore 4. But the pig has many loci with more than 4 alleles (according to Nutztierzchtung im Wandel der Zeit (Livestock Breeding Through the Ages) the pig has 14.5 alleles per locus today), so if mutation plays at best a minor role then where did all these additional alleles come from?
This needs to be explained.
Edited by Admin, : Wordsmith last sentence of next to last para.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 915 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 12:37 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 921 of 1034 (759714)
06-14-2015 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 920 by Admin
06-14-2015 3:42 PM


Re: macroevolution not impossible -- it has been observed.
Faith writes:
There is no such thing as a genetically new species in the sense of macroevolution which speciation supposedly represents.
Admin writes:
Okay, I think I can piece together a statement of your position on speciation now:
A new species can form from an existing species as long as the existing species possesses sufficient diversity, but the new species will remain genetically compatible with the original species, i.e., the new species will only have alleles already in the main population. This means that although interbreeding remains possible, it doesn't happen for either physical or behavioral reasons.
I don't think your summary is correct. You are making the same mistake I have repeatedly made with any number of people here.
Someone says something incorrect and then I follow up by assuming the nearest logical thing is what they actually meant making as small a tweak as possible. Nine out of ten times, this assumption is wrong because there is no actual correct or near correct interpretation. In truth, what Faith is really saying is that evolution does not make new kinds, and that the definition of speciation as producing non-inter fertile groups is a sham.
It is not clear to me what Faith's limitation actually means to the theory of evolution. Nobody is claiming that a cat can evolve or did evolve from a dog. Instead we believe that all mammals came from a common ancestor that was neither cat nor dog. Perhaps dogs and cats have a 'relatively' close common ancestor. (Closer than some randomly chosen mammal).
Could man have evolved from a non-hominin, ape ancestor? I'm not sure that Faith's contention, as quoted here argues against such thing. Maybe homo sapiens could actually breed with said ancestor if it were still in existence. Yet clearly, according to Genesis, men and apes are different kinds.
In truth, nothing Faith relies on makes one bit of sense. But in particular, natural selection is the most well observed and documented portion of the theory of evolution. It is the portion that Darwin actually observed while coming up with his theory. Your examples of gerbil population is only one good example of what happens without selection. Faith is simply chewing on the teeth of the saw

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 920 by Admin, posted 06-14-2015 3:42 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 922 of 1034 (759735)
06-14-2015 7:39 PM


Back to HBD's Chart
This thread seems to have found swamp level and I have no idea how it got there or how to get it out. NOBODY is making any sense. I was going to try to slog my way through all the posts I've missed but that doesn't seem like the productive direction right now.
As I recall, things started to go awry when HBD posted his chart and wanted me to see if I agree with it. I couldn't figure out the chart and I still can't and if it's been explained effectively I've missed it.
In any case I thought that might be the place to begin if there's any hope of getting the thread back on track, and there may not be by the look of it.
But I'd like to put up that chart again and ask HBD to answer some questions about it:
Diversity within pop BDiversity between A and BAffect all loci
MutationincreaseincreaseNo
MigrationincreasedecreaseYes
DriftdecreaseincreaseYes
Selectionincrease/decreaseincrease/decreaseNo
HBD, would you please answer these questions:
1, First, in relation to the diagram you usually include with the chart: Are those two subpopulations, the larger A and the smaller B, separate populations of the same species geographically isolated from each other, as Percy said, but you don't know what relation there is between them, i.e., which one is daughter or granddaughter or any such relation at all?
2. Is there any particular reason to include the Metapopulation in that diagram as far as interpreting the chart goes?
3. About the chart:
First, Mutation:
1) You want me to say if I agree that a mutation would bring about an increase in genetic diversity / variability within Population B (the smaller of the two)? (I'll answer when I find out if these restatements are correct).
2) Second, you want me to say if I agree that a mutation would bring about an increase in genetic diversity / variability "between the two subpopulations A and B" and here I really don't know what you mean by "between." Where does this mutation occur and what doers "between" mean?
3) Affect all Loci? refers to both populations or what?
4. Second, Migration:
1) You want me to say if I agree that migration would bring about an increase in genetic diversity / variability "within" subpopulation B (the smaller one). Just for the sake of orientation, does this mean migration into B from A, or from some unknown source?
2) Second, you want me to say if I agree that migration would bring about a DECREASE in genetic diversity / variability "between the two subpopulations A and B" and again I'm having trouble with the word "between." In fact I can't even come up with a very clear question. If they are sharing individuals from one to the other or perhaps between both there shouldn't be an increase or decrease in the total between them, so I have no idea what this means.
3) Again, Affect all Loci in both subpopulations or what?
5. Third, Drift:
1) You want me to say if I agree that drift would bring about a DECREASE in genetic diversity / variability "within" subpopulation B (the smaller one). As I understand drift, I can answer Yes to this now, but there’s always the possibility I don’t understand drift the same way you do.
2) Second, you want me to say if I agree that drift would bring about an INCREASE in genetic diversity / variability "between the two subpopulations A and B" and again I'm having trouble with the word "between." What relationship is there between the two populations? Why should drift affect both?
3) Again, all loci where?
6. Fourth, Selection:
1) You want me to say if I agree that selection would bring about both INCREASE AND DECREASE in genetic diversity / variability "within" subpopulation B (the smaller one). I have NO idea what this means.
2) Second, you want me to say if I agree that selection would bring about both INCREASE AND DECREASE in genetic diversity / variability "between the two subpopulations A and B" and again I have no idea what this means.
3) Again, all loci where?
I hope you can see why I have these questions and clarify so that maybe I COULD respond to the chart.
Thanks.

Replies to this message:
 Message 923 by Admin, posted 06-14-2015 8:18 PM Faith has replied
 Message 931 by herebedragons, posted 06-14-2015 11:34 PM Faith has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 923 of 1034 (759741)
06-14-2015 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 922 by Faith
06-14-2015 7:39 PM


Re: Back to HBD's Chart
Hi Faith,
I encourage your efforts at understanding HBD's chart, but I disapprove of your attempt in the opening paragraph to disparage efforts at understanding your views. Please don't abandon responsibility for making your views clear. There's no need to slog through all the posts, but it would be irresponsible if you didn't browse through them and respond to the key points. One reason these discussions are so difficult for you might be because you often, as you are doing again right now, suddenly shift direction, abandoning current threads of discussion and reviving old ones that you abandoned earlier, causing any progress to evaporate.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 922 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 7:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 924 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 8:21 PM Admin has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 924 of 1034 (759742)
06-14-2015 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 923 by Admin
06-14-2015 8:18 PM


Re: Back to HBD's Chart
Oh I fully intend to try to get through all the posts eventually, you can lay down your stick or switch, or is it a scepter?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 923 by Admin, posted 06-14-2015 8:18 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 925 by Admin, posted 06-14-2015 9:08 PM Faith has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 925 of 1034 (759746)
06-14-2015 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 924 by Faith
06-14-2015 8:21 PM


Re: Back to HBD's Chart
Faith writes:
Oh I fully intend to try to get through all the posts eventually,...
But that's what you're doing right now, getting to an old post, eventually, after progress and continuity on that subtopic are gone. Please do not let that happen to the current subtopics.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 924 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 8:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 926 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 9:11 PM Admin has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 926 of 1034 (759747)
06-14-2015 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 925 by Admin
06-14-2015 9:08 PM


Re: Back to HBD's Chart
WHAT "progress and continuity? All I see is an incredible morass of straw man arguments and really really demented failures of understanding, and your non-moderator-style blaming it all on me does NOT encourage participation in what is really your own personal viewpoint.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 925 by Admin, posted 06-14-2015 9:08 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 927 by NoNukes, posted 06-14-2015 9:26 PM Faith has replied
 Message 929 by Admin, posted 06-14-2015 9:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 927 of 1034 (759748)
06-14-2015 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 926 by Faith
06-14-2015 9:11 PM


Re: Back to HBD's Chart
and your non-moderator-style blaming it all on me does NOT encourage participation in what is really your own personal viewpoint.
If Admin were not pointing out your errors in logic and your inconsistent arguments, the rest of us would be doing so. And we'd probably be using the kinds of insults you are using to describe us. I applaud Percy's attempt to maintain order and to try to convert this discussion into some kind of orderly exchange of arguments.
This thread is entirely about your take on the theory of evolution. It is your responsibility to provide a meaningful explanation of that position. If nobody is getting it, and there are some pretty smart people here including PaulK whom you in the past have said understands, then the failure is yours.
I maintain that you don't have an argument. When your assertions are challenged, a couple of exchanges always results in your falling back on the 'you don't get it' crutch when you have no answers. That happens because it is quite easy find inconsistencies in your position as well as evidence that your assertions are simply wrong.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 926 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 9:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 928 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 9:40 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 928 of 1034 (759749)
06-14-2015 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 927 by NoNukes
06-14-2015 9:26 PM


Re: Back to HBD's Chart
Pardon me, but your track record here is the worst of the worst so your opinion on the procedures is the least of the least in my judgment. If I had one good partner to work with you bunch of self-aggrandizing bullies wouldn't stand a chance.
BACK OFF AND LET'S SEE IF HBD ANSWERS MY QUERIES.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 927 by NoNukes, posted 06-14-2015 9:26 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 934 by NoNukes, posted 06-15-2015 12:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 929 of 1034 (759750)
06-14-2015 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 926 by Faith
06-14-2015 9:11 PM


Re: Back to HBD's Chart
Faith writes:
WHAT "progress and continuity"? All I see is an incredible morass of straw man arguments and really really demented failures of understanding,...
Yes, this is the kind of thing you always say eventually in many threads regardless of who's participating. It greatly hinders discussion and it would be a great help if you would stop.
...and your non-moderator-style blaming it all on me does NOT encourage participation in what is really your own personal viewpoint.
You're the only one engaging in this kind of behavior, and in continual other complaints, and in threats to leave, and in complete melt-downs, so who else is one to blame? You can't engage in all these kinds of misbehaviors and expect moderation to permit them to go by without comment.
This is enough moderation commentary for now. If you have further concerns take them to the Report Discussion Problems Here 4.0 thread.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 926 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 9:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 930 of 1034 (759752)
06-14-2015 9:54 PM


Moderator Request
Please let's keep the focus on the topic.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
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