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Author Topic:   Testing Baramins Through Comparison of Genomes
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 16 of 21 (692331)
03-01-2013 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by kofh2u
03-01-2013 8:39 PM


Re: ...special creation of humans...
My second point was that geneticists have shown Intelliegence is what was effected by the fusion of Chromosome 2.

Are you saying that is wrong, in spite I gave you the link???

You are missing the point entirely. The question is not how intelligence evolved in humans. The topic is testing baramins by comparing genomes. IOW, testing for relationships between the groups. Obviously, the other great apes did not evolve our level of intelligence but we are still discussing their relatedness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by kofh2u, posted 03-01-2013 8:39 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by kofh2u, posted 03-01-2013 9:27 PM Taq has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1896 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 17 of 21 (692337)
03-01-2013 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Taq
03-01-2013 9:03 PM


Re: ...special creation of humans...

You are missing the point entirely. The question is not how intelligence evolved in humans. The topic is testing baramins by comparing genomes. IOW, testing for relationships between the groups. Obviously, the other great apes did not evolve our level of intelligence but we are still discussing their relatedness.

I was referring to that point.

What I said was that by mutation, the Fusion created diversity in that Man appeared as if out of the thin air, materializing as if the dirt of the earth had formed him without a father or human mother.

You said that fusions happen, but ther is no evidence they did anything out of the ordinary.

Then I said gentic shows that Intelligence is related to Chromosome 2, and the very gene that seems to be involved is related to Semantical Intelligence as are others also.

I am giving you a solid example of a mutation and the genes involved which have had positive beneficial effects and created a new species.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Taq, posted 03-01-2013 9:03 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Taq, posted 03-01-2013 9:32 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 18 of 21 (692340)
03-01-2013 9:29 PM


Moving Ahead . . .
I think it is counterproductive to wait on creationists to commit to a great ape baramin so we will move forward with this image found at Objective: Ministries


http://objectiveministries.org/creation/baraminology.html

They obviously have the different races of man in one baramin and the great apes in another as suggested in the opening post. So let's move one from that point.

This is where I will introduce a very simple yet important concept: mutations do not move between species. A mutation that happens in a chimp does not automatically appear in the human population. The two baramins are genetically isolated so mutations that happen in one baramin stay in that baramin. This is especially true for neutral mutations.

So what is our launching off point for the two baramins? The two common ancestors for each baramin: the common ancestral population for the great apes and the common ancestral population for humans (Adam and Eve?). At that point there is a set amount of genetic differences between each population, between the common ancestors of the apes and the common ancestors of humans.

Now each baramin starts to accumulate mutations, and in the case of the apes they split into three species (we are lumping chimps and bonobos). However, nowhere in the process do mutations flow between the two baramins. This means that the two baramins must drift apart as they accumulate different mutations. More importantly, ALL of the ape species will drift away from humans more or less equally when making comparisons across the entire genome.

This is a concept called genetic equidistance. This is a process whereby entire clades continue to drift apart after they a split, but in this case they started separately. The concept still applies, however.

So, if the baramin claim is true we can make a very solid prediction. When we compare genomes between apes and humans we should see an equal number of differences between humans and any one of the ape species.

On the other hand, if the evolutionary claims of humans being within the ape clade are true, then we should see that humans are more closely related to chimps than to gorillas, and even more distantly related to orangutans.

So which model makes the correct prediction? The evolutionary model. The baramin model is clearly falsified by the genome comparisons.

This is why we know that the baramin model is false.


Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by NoNukes, posted 03-02-2013 4:36 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 19 of 21 (692341)
03-01-2013 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by kofh2u
03-01-2013 9:27 PM


Re: ...special creation of humans...
What I said was that by mutation, the Fusion created diversity in that Man appeared as if out of the thin air, materializing as if the dirt of the earth had formed him without a father or human mother.

You said that fusions happen, but ther is no evidence they did anything out of the ordinary.

You are missing the point entirely. The topic is about the relatedness between apes and humans, not how intelligence evolved. Perhaps my post above will make my points clearer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by kofh2u, posted 03-01-2013 9:27 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 21 (692385)
03-02-2013 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Blue Jay
03-01-2013 11:35 AM


I would expect baramins to be a work in progress, just like phylogenetic trees are.

Well, yes if by work in progress, you accept "my dog ate my homework" as actually describing a step in doing your homework.

Has any scientist or creationist done any serious work on baraminology this century? I doubt it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Blue Jay, posted 03-01-2013 11:35 AM Blue Jay has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 21 (692404)
03-02-2013 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Taq
03-01-2013 9:29 PM


Re: Moving Ahead . . .
so we will move forward with this image found at Objective: Ministries

Hmm, so Gorilla:Bonobo::Negroid:Caucasoid. Who writes this crap?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Taq, posted 03-01-2013 9:29 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
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