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Author
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Topic: Homosexuality and Natural Selection.
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1568 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 22 of 243 (347144)
09-06-2006 10:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 21 by CDarwin
09-06-2006 9:21 PM
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my take on it.
... and they gave me the idea that ALL of evolution is PROGRESSIVE, ... So the evolution of HIV\AIDS is to make the human population better? (see sig btw)
CDarwin, msg 1 writes: This is a problem I have because if I say it is not I am called Anti -Gay and homophobic which I am not. But how do I get the message that Evolution does not try to reach a Pre-destination? There have been a number of studies of twins raised in different (adoptive) families that show a strong correlation of homosexual behavior with genetics and counter to family environmental conditions. This does not mean that it must be genetic -- it could be formative environmental conditions (certain pollutants or missing minerals during fetal growth and before birth) that cause changes to both twins before birth. It is also quite possible that the genes that affect {whatever it is that defines} what an individual is attracted to as a sexual partner are close to, but not on, the genes that determine sex. Thus attraction does not always allign with sex. It could be a common transcription mutation. But the other thing we can be fairly sure of is that whatever the cause is, it is a recurrent mechanism. Whether it is a common fetal developmental mutation or whether it is a recurrent mutation in a susceptible gene section, it keeps re-appearing in populations generation after generation -- and not just in Homo sapiens but many species. It could be genetic, it could be fetal formation environment, it could be both in different combinations. We don't know. Neither of these would show up as a "homosexual gene" because it could be a similar but different variation, or just a point in development that is blocked by either mechanism, with lots of different ways to make the block. This essentially means that it is not necessarily selected for. It just keeps reappearing because of the other half of the mechanism: mutations. The only thing I have seen that would argue for an evolved selection for homosexuality is a slight tendency for more homosexuals as the last offspring in large families (the idea being that an environmental factor builds up in the mothers reproductive system the more kids she has). What we do know is that it is not choice. That's my take on it. Enjoy.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by CDarwin, posted 09-06-2006 9:21 PM | | CDarwin has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1568 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 43 of 243 (347606)
09-08-2006 6:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 35 by riVeRraT
09-07-2006 7:48 PM
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stereotyped, but ...
... but be decorated really fabulous. Are you saying we could infer intelligent design???
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by riVeRraT, posted 09-07-2006 7:48 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 44 by riVeRraT, posted 09-08-2006 8:56 PM | | RAZD has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1568 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 46 of 243 (347640)
09-08-2006 9:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 45 by riVeRraT
09-08-2006 8:58 PM
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Explain packs where only one male and one female reproduce but the whole pack takes care of raising the young. That's 3 to 4 times the number of reproducing individuals that are not reproducing. No way? Explain ants and bees where one male mates (and dies) with one female, and the whole nest takes care of raising the young. That's 100's times the number of reproducing individuals that are not reproducing. No way? Explain the lizard in SW where there are only females (no males), and that reproduce by cloning themselves after gay sex. No way? Enjoy.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by riVeRraT, posted 09-08-2006 8:58 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 49 by riVeRraT, posted 09-08-2006 11:19 PM | | RAZD has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1568 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 51 of 243 (347748)
09-09-2006 7:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 49 by riVeRraT
09-08-2006 11:19 PM
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I am not exactly sure how this promotes gay people to exist. That wasn't your question. Your question was:
45 writes: There really is no way that the gay population could increase through natural selection, is there? With the clear implication that your doubt was centered on them not reproducing. Clearly natural selection can select for populations of organisms where significant numbers are not reproductive members of that population yet provide a selective advantage to the population for the continuation of the species -- and whether they are "gay" or not is immaterial to the selection process if they don't reproduce eh?
I did not know about that, that is fascinating. The act of sex is all that is needed to stimulate reproduction in these lizards. Yes they are clones but that is because no DNA is transmitted during sex. Toujours gai.
Think of the moths from the book of Darwin. The white moths got weened out due to natural selection. Straight people would not get weened out, because the majority of gay people are not reproducing. The white light moths were not eliminated, they were reduced in numbers while the dark moths increased in numbers, and when the pollution was cleaned up, the environment was not sooty anymore and natural selection swung back to favor light moth population over the dark moth population. Natural selection does not always mean elimination of one set of organisms within a population. It could also result in a dividing of the population into two new species -- if the pollution had continued and dark moths were predominantly selected in polluted areas and light moths were predominantly selected in non-polluted areas there could be a point reached where they did not or could not interbreed (due to further mutations within populations after being isolated by preferential predation). If there is an {advantage\disadvantage} disequilibrium in a population for one variation within a population over another variation in the population, then natural selection will favour the {relatively advantaged} set over the {relatively disadvantaged} set, regardless of what that variation includes. Enjoy. (no beating up done)
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by riVeRraT, posted 09-08-2006 11:19 PM | | riVeRraT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 53 by riVeRraT, posted 09-09-2006 10:05 AM | | RAZD has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1568 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 54 of 243 (347766)
09-09-2006 10:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 52 by riVeRraT
09-09-2006 9:59 AM
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Re: RiverRat: They're here, They're queer, and so are the rest of us.
Also, are there any other species that we know of, that have evolved themselves right off the planet? Just all the ones that are extinct. That would include the ones we don't know of as well.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by riVeRraT, posted 09-09-2006 9:59 AM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1568 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 55 of 243 (347768)
09-09-2006 10:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 52 by riVeRraT
09-09-2006 9:59 AM
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Re: RiverRat: They're here, They're queer, and so are the rest of us.
Also, are there any other species that we know of, that have evolved themselves right off the planet? Just all the ones that are extinct. That would include the ones we don't know of as well.
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by riVeRraT, posted 09-09-2006 9:59 AM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1568 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 58 of 243 (347840)
09-09-2006 6:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 57 by Modulous
09-09-2006 4:47 PM
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celebate perverts
... there are probably other members who are genetically inclined towards celibacy. um actually documented IIRC ... and then there are also those mono-sexual perverts ... and everyone else that doesn't engage in the purposeful propagation of the species by having sex with whoever is available ...
(sorry ... just getting a little venting steam off ... why are only homosexuals discriminated against by the "morality" brigadees ... ) Edited by RAZD, : ubbcodecc
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by Modulous, posted 09-09-2006 4:47 PM | | Modulous has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 62 by Silent H, posted 09-10-2006 5:38 AM | | RAZD has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1568 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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perverted gay bees
Natural selection favors the stronger over the weaker in most cases. SIGH. No. Natural selection favors the ones that are more fit relative to those that are less fit for the condition at hand. Sometimes this means one variety is favored sometimes it means the other is -- the peppered moths are a case in point.
This is very simple logic. If it was just about merely 'feeling good,' just about anything could satisfy some baser appetite, so why go out of one's way to find someone of the same sex if just about feeling good?. Simple yes, logic no. People do things because it feels good way more than they do things because it is logical eh? But let's consider the bees. The male (king) bee has a short and lustly life breeding with a female (queen) bee shortly after birth, and shortly thereafter dying (probably from the depredations of a lusty life, full of wine women and song eh?) The female (queen) bee has a lusty life at the start and then settles down (never to have sex again) to the duties of making the next generation(s) -- some of which will be male, some of which will be female, and some of which will be .... gay. But the gay bees are not interested in having sex with males or with females of their species, they lust after sex with a totally different kind of species -- they have sex with flowers (disgusting eh?), and get buzzed on the nectar of flower love, and THEN, when they get back to the hive they dance for the other gay bees to tell them where they can indulge in this wicked behavior. And they indulge in this deviant behavior of having sex with flowers day after day after day. And there are MORE of these gay bees than there are male AND female bees combined (er, or should I say "added together"). Filthy little perverts! Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : added
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-09-2006 6:59 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 67 by CDarwin, posted 09-11-2006 8:53 PM | | RAZD has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1568 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 69 of 243 (348252)
09-11-2006 10:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 67 by CDarwin
09-11-2006 8:53 PM
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Re: perverted gay bees
I have herd of a flower that mimics a female be in some way to attract a bee in order for it( the flower ) to cross polinate. I believe you are thinking of certain wasps and the orchids that mimic the wasps down to odour to attract pollinators: http://www.anu.edu.au/BoZo/orchid_pollination/ This just shows what dollied up trollups those flowers are, and that they'll have sex with any species they can lure into their lurid schemes. Bird, bat, bug, slug ...
I thing the GAY bees are Sterile female bees and they go to flowers to get necter. They are sterile bees, the default (when sexual development in interupted) is probably female development (as it is in humans but not in all species -- a male DNA child with interupted sexual development will grow up looking and developing into a female down to ... but not including the sexual apparatus). Nectar is the sexual juice of the flower that's what it is made for.
(sheesh are you trying to kill a good joke with too much information .... ?)
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by CDarwin, posted 09-11-2006 8:53 PM | | CDarwin has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1568 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Re: Oppositional slander
You haven't just failed to understand the argument RAZD presented ... To be fair, he said he hadn't read my posts yet (he just jumped in with both empty barrels blazing anyway)
... one of the most basic elements of bee biology. Don't you mean bee-all-ogy? 
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 92 by Wounded King, posted 09-15-2006 10:56 AM | | Wounded King has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1568 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 106 of 243 (353063)
09-29-2006 8:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 96 by Hyroglyphx
09-17-2006 10:41 AM
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Re: Oppositional slander
I haven't read RAZD's post at all. But after all of this fuss I think I'll track it down and give it a gander. In case you are having trouble the post in question is Message 61 How do you explain the reproduction of the gay bees? Enjoy.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-17-2006 10:41 AM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 117 by DorfMan, posted 10-06-2006 12:42 PM | | RAZD has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1568 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Re: Rrhain redux
Wounded King responds to riVeRraT:
(*blink!*)
You did not just say that, did you?  classic.
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1568 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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An allele which increases female fecundity is likely to produce a more productive lineage and therefore propagate more than one producing less fecund females. If that allele happens to produce, either directly or indirectly, homosexuality in a proportion of the male offspring of that lineage then that will impact the fitness benefit of that allele, but not neccessarily to a degree which overides the benefit accrued in the female line. Especially when you consider that the fecundity of females is more limiting on the species than the fecundtity of males. Look at herd animals and you know you really only need one male for every 10 to 20 females to still have as many offspring per year as possible. The fecundity of males is generally way higher than necessary for species survival by several orders of magnitude.
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1568 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 118 of 243 (354927)
10-06-2006 10:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 117 by DorfMan
10-06-2006 12:42 PM
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Re: Oppositional slander
yeah, They're supposed to be after the male man eh? Seriously, animals raised in close proximity can be significantly confused about what they are. Horses and Donkeys don't normally mate, but raise one with the other and they will.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 117 by DorfMan, posted 10-06-2006 12:42 PM | | DorfMan has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1568 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Re: Oppositional slander
Maybe this be a clue to that homosexuality is not due to passing on homosexual genes, but maybe in the upbringing of that individual, and the choices made by him/her. Why? Mules aren't made by homosexual behavior between horses and donkeys are they? (not that there is anything wrong with that ... ) And how does this explain the homosexual behavior of so many different kinds of animals, from Bonobos to dolphins? Personally I don't think there is {A} homosexual "gene" -- rather that there are {several} behavior areas and {several} sex related areas in the genes, and that they are not necessarily passed on together. Thus there will always be some mix and match going on that will always generate SOME homosexual behavior between similar sex individuals. Behavior that natural selection will never be able to remove whether it needs to or not. It's like throwing dice, you will always get some 1's and always get some 6's, and occasionally you will get a 1 and a 6 together. What's the big deal eh? And if you don't have to force animals into homosexual behavior, but you do have to force horses and donkeys to mate, then WHICH is more un-natural eh? Enjoy.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 121 by Confidence, posted 12-08-2006 12:09 PM | | Confidence has not replied |
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