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Author Topic:   Homosexuality and Natural Selection.
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 4 of 243 (346925)
09-06-2006 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CDarwin
09-05-2006 9:36 PM


It mat be correct that Homosexuality is genetic but yet unproven.
This is a problem I have because if I say it is not I am called Anti -Gay and homophobic which I am not.
I feel that whether it is or isn't genetic, has no bearing on what people "feel" it is. If someone you come across can't understand that thought, and wants to call you a homophobe, then they are the ones with the problem.
The pentagon has released a detailed report saying that being homosexual is a mental disorder, although that is being refuted. If thats the case, then I would think any sexual preference could be considered a mental disorder, as we all have one.
It seems like two very diffrent groups want to see Evolution to fit their own agenda.
What can I do?
Just keep telling them the truth.
What I don't understand is, just how is the faith-based group using evolution to suit their agenda?
You can also point out that if gay people want to believe that evolution has a purpose, or intelligence, then there is a lot of other explaining that needs to taken into account. I am sure if you examine it, and pose a question to them, they will see how evolution is not it's own entity, but just a theory. We are not borg.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CDarwin, posted 09-05-2006 9:36 PM CDarwin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 09-06-2006 1:05 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 8 by Taz, posted 09-06-2006 1:25 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 19 by CDarwin, posted 09-06-2006 9:01 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 5 of 243 (346927)
09-06-2006 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by kuresu
09-06-2006 2:14 AM


Because the homosexual isn't having children, he can focus his attention on helping to care for the children in his extened family
That's pretty funny.
ABE, or maybe it just means he/she is supposed to be a Preist
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 10 of 243 (347049)
09-06-2006 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
09-06-2006 1:05 PM


And what people "feel" it is has no bearing on what it "is"
This is exactly what I said, only in reverse. I am in no way trying to justify what people feel about it. I am saying that their feelings may be unwarranted.
The OP is afraid of being called a homophobe by gays who do not even know how to define evolution, or why they are gay. Seems like they are just quick to pull the homophobe trigger. I find that just as bad as being an actual homophobe.
Homophobe is fear of homosexuals, but then what do you call someone who is afraid of being called a homophobe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 09-06-2006 1:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by kuresu, posted 09-06-2006 5:49 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 09-06-2006 6:06 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 12 of 243 (347054)
09-06-2006 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Taz
09-06-2006 1:25 PM


That's easy. If you put a bunch of gay men on an island, they'll eventually die out. But if you put a bunch of straight men and women on an island, evolution has insured us that the chances of them dying out is a lot less due to our ability to procreate and sex drive.
I feel there is truth in that statement, but to be fair, if you put a bunch of heterosexuals on the island, who were born with the inability to procreate, they would also die out.
In my quest to try and justify marraige as being just a man and a woman, it came down to just those points. To me the real reason for being married is to have children, and start a family, otherwise we are just hanging out being friends for life, and screwing each other.
This obviously way different from what actually is, and people who are married with no desire to have children take ofense to that thought. So I came to the conclusion that the world is just way too fucked up, starting with me first, and I will leave it up to God's grace and mercy to sort it all out. I will just try and love the next person, and not throw stones.
Sounds like the gathering your speaking of is just that, an illegitamite stone throwing contest, and you will never convince either side of anything, because you are not dealing directly with the underlying motives of either side.
It all boils down to love. What would love do? Some people in here seem to think that love is the culmination of our basic survival instincts, but there is no survival instinct in a gay sex(not relationship), as it doesn't lead to carrying on the human race. so to me love is way deeper than just evolved survival instincts. Love conquers all. In all this, who is loving who?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Taz, posted 09-06-2006 1:25 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Taz, posted 09-14-2006 4:05 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 13 of 243 (347055)
09-06-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by kuresu
09-06-2006 5:49 PM


homophobiphobia
"fear of being a feared of a queer" (all in good humor)
I was going to say that too. But it is not fear of being fearful of homo's, it's fearful of being called fearful of being homo.
Just looked up some phobias:
Nomatophobia- Fear of names.
Onomatophobia- Fear of hearing a certain word or of names.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by kuresu, posted 09-06-2006 5:49 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by kuresu, posted 09-06-2006 6:12 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 35 of 243 (347362)
09-07-2006 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
09-06-2006 6:00 PM


you put a bunch of homosexual men and women on an island?
The island will have no children, but be decorated really fabulous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 09-06-2006 6:00 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by RAZD, posted 09-08-2006 6:39 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 36 of 243 (347368)
09-07-2006 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by CDarwin
09-06-2006 9:01 PM


If Homosexuality is a mental disorder, is Pedophillia just a prefrence?
I don't know if you got where I was coming from. If homosexuality is a mental disorder, then every sexual preference is then. It all hinges on what you perceive as order, and disorder.

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 44 of 243 (347629)
09-08-2006 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by RAZD
09-08-2006 6:39 PM


Re: stereotyped, but ...
Are you saying we could infer intelligent design???
No, I am saying we could infer talented design.
If it was an island of broken down cars, I don't know how quickly they would get running, but they would be painted in great colors.
I know, I know, I am sterotyping,,,,, so what?

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 45 of 243 (347631)
09-08-2006 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Silent H
09-08-2006 6:13 PM


There really is no way that the gay population could increase through natural selection, is there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Silent H, posted 09-08-2006 6:13 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by RAZD, posted 09-08-2006 9:25 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 47 by Taz, posted 09-08-2006 9:40 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 50 by Silent H, posted 09-09-2006 5:28 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 48 of 243 (347697)
09-08-2006 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taz
09-08-2006 9:40 PM


Even your questions demonstrate lack of understanding of what you are talking about.
????
My question.....demostrates.......a lack of understanding of what I am talking about.
My question...talking about...
My question, not talking about anything. If I had credentials in that field of knowledge, I would not have asked that question, would I?
Instead of attacking me, explain to me how it could happen, so I can understand too.
The reason I ask is because just about everything you say seems to have come straight from thin air
Just like your unwarranted response, right from thin air. There is no room for BS like this in an intelligent conversation, so stop.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Taz, posted 09-08-2006 9:40 PM Taz has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 49 of 243 (347707)
09-08-2006 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by RAZD
09-08-2006 9:25 PM


Explain packs where only one male and one female reproduce but the whole pack takes care of raising the young.
That's 3 to 4 times the number of reproducing individuals that are not reproducing.
No way?
Explain ants and bees where one male mates (and dies) with one female, and the whole nest takes care of raising the young.
That's 100's times the number of reproducing individuals that are not reproducing.
No way?
I am not exactly sure how this promotes gay people to exist.
Explain the lizard in SW where there are only females (no males), and that reproduce by cloning themselves after gay sex.
No way?
Enjoy.
I did not know about that, that is fascinating. Seriously. But we do not clone, so that kind of supports what I am saying.
Think of the moths from the book of Darwin. The white moths got weened out due to natural selection. Straight people would not get weened out, because the majority of gay people are not reproducing.
The only thing I can think of, and it is a very ignorant narrowminded view of it, is that gay people are more the result of society, than natural selection.
Please, don't everyone beat up on me, but just explain why I am wrong, and if there is no truth to what I am saying. We have established that I have nothing against gay people, and I have declared that I don't really give a crap how they got to be gay, other than it is just plain interesting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by RAZD, posted 09-08-2006 9:25 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2006 7:24 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 52 of 243 (347763)
09-09-2006 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Silent H
09-09-2006 5:28 AM


Re: RiverRat: They're here, They're queer, and so are the rest of us.
Thanks holmes. I guess what I wrote wasn't really what I meant.
Let's say that whatever it is that would increase the number of homosexual people on the planet continued, and all we were left with was homosexual people. Wouldn't our race then die out, making the natural selection process a failure?
Also, are there any other species that we know of, that have evolved themselves right off the planet?
I know all this is far fetched and would never happen, but it is fun to discuss it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Silent H, posted 09-09-2006 5:28 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2006 10:17 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 55 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2006 10:20 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 56 by Silent H, posted 09-09-2006 11:41 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 53 of 243 (347764)
09-09-2006 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by RAZD
09-09-2006 7:24 AM


With the clear implication that your doubt was centered on them not reproducing.
Yes, thank you for pointing that out. I wasn't really focusing on the fact that they are gay, just the fact that most homosexuals do not reproduce.
Clearly natural selection can select for populations of organisms where significant numbers are not reproductive members of that population yet provide a selective advantage to the population for the continuation of the species -- and whether they are "gay" or not is immaterial to the selection process if they don't reproduce eh?
Absolutely. But what if it was all, and not some?
The act of sex is all that is needed to stimulate reproduction in these lizards. Yes they are clones but that is because no DNA is transmitted during sex. Toujours gai.
Hey wouldn't it be funny if all of a sudden lesbians started reproducing in the same fashion?
I wonder if this would make them happy or not.
Natural selection does not always mean elimination of one set of organisms within a population.
But there was a purpose, or an explanation why that happened. I wonder what our explanation is.
I have always felt that the moth was designed to do just what it did, and it isn't something that would lead it to being another species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2006 7:24 AM RAZD has not replied

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 64 of 243 (348057)
09-11-2006 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Silent H
09-09-2006 11:41 AM


Re: RiverRat: They're here, They're queer, and so are the rest of us.
It might suck from our perspective but there is no goal to evolution.
This kind of brings us back to the op.
Then I ask this question. If there is no goal to evolution, then why do we have survival instincts, and a will to live?
I'm not going to say every extinct species,
I don't think RAZD meant ever extinct species, but the species that have died from natural selection are now extinct.
This species becomes so unable to disentangle elements of their fantasy from reality that they use technology to reshape reality to fit their fantasies. Eventually certain factions invent wholly fictional species which talk to them and demand the destruction of all life that does not believe in those fictional species or how they want reality to be seen. These factions proceed to use their improved technology to kill off members of their own species to placate the fictional entities, wiping out everyone in the process.
In other words I think we have more to worry about than homosexuals being selected to such a degree that we don't reproduce.
I totally agree with this. I love technology, but I wonder will it be our ultimate demise?
Maybe that is one of the reasons I believe in God, and all that is part of the equation of the difference between God and man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Silent H, posted 09-09-2006 11:41 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Silent H, posted 09-11-2006 8:18 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 671 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 65 of 243 (348059)
09-11-2006 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Dr Adequate
09-07-2006 4:36 AM


Nature knows nothing.
We are nature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-07-2006 4:36 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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