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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3678 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 1 of 652 (693978)
03-20-2013 4:29 PM


I am not trying to offend simply to converse and have some of my own questions answered, i feel i may have hijacked the Morality thread elsewhere and feel this conversation could perhaps do with its own discussion.
So
I propose that Christianity is essentially a morally bankrupt system.
My reasoning is as follows;
1 - Devine atonement for Sin is a moral loop hole.
If a person does wrong the proper path to righting that wrong is to make recompense to the individual who has been wronged and/or society, prayer and other wishful thinking are moot in comparison to this
2 - Heaven and Hell are Unjust.
All human lifes have a very limited scope for both the good and the ill that they can do, no person can ever rack up enough "Karma" either good or bad to justify an eternity of anything. Eternal reward seem dubious and eternal torture down right barbaric
3 - Vicarious Redemption.
The crucifixion of Jesus for the atonement of sins is immoral, no person should ever be able to take moral responsibility for another. Certainly one can help someone else shoulder a burden in many ways but no one can take away someone else's responsibility for their actions. This central tenant strikes at the very idea of personal morality
4 - Freedom of Choice.
To expect everyone to fall in under a system whether they want to or not, to leave them no option to opt out is tyrannical and down right abusive. If you were born into a community or joined one who's rules you did not agree with you would be able to leave (although it could be difficult, think of the Berlin Wall for example) - Christianity offers no such claus
5 - Original Sin and Sins of the Father.
Personal responsibility and morality mean little to nothing in a culture where the vilification for crimes can be passed from one generation to the next.
6 - Thought Crimes.
Due to the mythic properties of the Christian god he is aware of what your thinking and judges you on it. This is a psychologically damaging and again grossly immoral standing as thoughts should never be subject to such critic, indeed in the case of Intrusive Thoughts (a common symptom of many psychological illnesses including stress and depression) particularly harmful and unfair as a person may be suffering from their own thoughts anyway and would require compassion and understanding not feelings of guilt and shame, which they probably are already feeling
There are undoubtedly more examples and these can be hugely expanded upon but I feel this is probably enough of a jumping off point.
Probably a hugely offensive subject but one I very much would like to debate. Thanks
(a lot of this probably holds true for a lot of religions but I'm most familiar with Christianity so I'm working from there)
******************************
Edit/Addition :
For the sake of clarity I'm gonna add the kicker that I am only currently finding issue with Christian doctorians which believe the above - it has been abundantly pointed out to me that not all Christians hold all of these beliefs, if a Christian does hold any or all of these beliefs please join the debate - conversly if a Christian holds none of these beliefs as true please join anyway but be aware I'm not currently taking you to task on your beliefs as I clearly have no idea what you believe. But by all means let's me know what you do believe and I'd be happy to debate that, or better yet get your opinion on the above practices as I'm sure we have some common groud on our disapproval of some issues
Edited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.

Reason > Belief
Even if we dont agree find me on Facebook, always happy to have new friends

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 9:23 AM GrimSqueaker has replied
 Message 6 by jar, posted 03-21-2013 10:05 AM GrimSqueaker has replied
 Message 8 by Jazzns, posted 03-21-2013 10:14 AM GrimSqueaker has not replied
 Message 23 by Coyote, posted 03-21-2013 8:17 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied
 Message 26 by Jon, posted 03-21-2013 10:30 PM GrimSqueaker has replied
 Message 53 by NoNukes, posted 03-23-2013 1:38 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3678 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 4 of 652 (693983)
03-21-2013 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 9:23 AM


Re: ...but the restraint on sexual promiscuity is still validated???
I don't so much care about the particularities of interpretation of dogma in this context, the very corner stones are degraded and corrupt.
We can argue whether the bible means Homosexuality is wrong or not but that argument is moot if the biblical god and system of belief are inherently flawed
Edit : upon reflection I should probably address ur issue of promiscuity - so long as people r safe and happy why does it matter? Sex is one of the best things about being human, I've slept with damn near every kind of girl in every kind of way and I can happily say my life is better for it
Edited by GrimSqueaker, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by kofh2u, posted 03-21-2013 1:07 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3678 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 7 of 652 (693994)
03-21-2013 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
03-21-2013 10:05 AM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
Can u please educate me where I am wrong, I was raised as a Christian too, and I went to Christian schools until I was 18 - and I can't see where I am

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 03-21-2013 10:05 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 03-21-2013 10:47 AM GrimSqueaker has replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3678 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 10 of 652 (694024)
03-21-2013 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
03-21-2013 10:47 AM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
Thank u for ur detailed reply, I'm clearly unfamiliar
With ur particular branch - so what exactly do u believe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 03-21-2013 10:47 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-21-2013 12:41 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3678 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 12 of 652 (694031)
03-21-2013 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
03-21-2013 12:41 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
Damn more reading - ok, gimme a bit and I'll have a read

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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3678 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 14 of 652 (694036)
03-21-2013 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
03-21-2013 12:41 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
I really enjoyed your essay, it was very sweet and clear and honestly ur god doesn't seem all that different from the one my mom taught me about.
I still have a few bones to pick, although not on the subject of morality, but I'd really rather not pick them. U seem far to pleasant to debate, I hate to loos but I'd really rather not win that one

Reason > Belief
Even if we dont agree find me on Facebook, always happy to have new friends

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-21-2013 12:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3678 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


(5)
Message 16 of 652 (694040)
03-21-2013 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by kofh2u
03-21-2013 1:07 PM


Re: ...but the restraint on sexual promiscuity is still validated???
How old r u dude? U have a dreadfully dated world view.
A child is raised by a loving community, I am a single father of a wonderful 10 year old boy who is surrounded by people who care for him and cherish him - my relationship
Status or the absence of his mother does nothing to deminish that. A family is so much more than 2.5 kids and a mom and dad, family oughta be as unique and diverse as the people that it creates.
Beside I did emphasis that safe sex should be practiced, I would not encourage anyone to be reckless with their bodies or their hearts, but I would be in favour of being happy and not feeling ashamed of one of the best parts of life.
Ur views on women is appalling by the way, it is so backasswards I'm not
Sure it requires qualification - but women r strong and intelligent and love sex just as
Much as guys, people r just people.

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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3678 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 17 of 652 (694043)
03-21-2013 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
03-21-2013 1:11 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
If your sure...... I really would rather not, but ur quite a good speaker so I'm curious to hear what u have to say.
I suppose firstly I'd be curious to have the usual atheist crap answered, why do u believe exactly and how can u proove it - but I suppose more specifically I'd question the nessesity of your god, it seems that you have a good basis for a secular stand point, with no fear of eternal damnation etc. I suppose as a system of belief worship relies essentially on an element of fear - without that I dunno, why bother I suppose. Why not leave it at live a good life and be a good person. It seems like your niche have already saved themselves

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Replies to this message:
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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3678 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 28 of 652 (694120)
03-22-2013 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jon
03-21-2013 10:30 PM


I agree that what exists exists - that's kinda a corner stone of any attempt to understand anything, but r u saying it from a theistic point of view or a rationalist one? Clarify?

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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3678 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


(1)
Message 29 of 652 (694121)
03-22-2013 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
03-21-2013 4:15 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
"As to having saved myself? Nonsense. There is no way I can save myself. If I am saved it will only be through the Grace of GOD."
I deeply dislike this position.
I'm not an antitheist due to my own intellectual integrity BUT I would lean very heavily in that direction, as such I am 99.999999% that all the goodness and kindness (which is the vibe I'm getting from u) in you, begins and ends in u - the existance of a higher power would lessens that, and believe in one does yourself a disservice. Whatever you achieve in life you do so by the Grace of Jar and you should be damn proud of that. Any obstical you over come or problem you squash, Grace of Jar again.
To qoute A. Voltaire
"I hate people who blame the devil for their own short comings and I hate when people thank god when things go right"
Humans r capable of astounding things, both the honour and the responsibility for those things lies with the individuals in question - anything else lessens the human experience, and life is too freaking short to lessen the experience

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 03-21-2013 4:15 PM jar has replied

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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3678 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 34 of 652 (694204)
03-23-2013 1:14 AM


Hmmmmm upon rereading that post wasn't my best work - but I suppose I'm having a little trouble wording my objections to you position.
Let me try again, I'm gonna break this down
From what I see you give some credit to a supernatural being for the good in ur life
For each interest group that recieves credit for anything after the first group reduces the amount of credit attributed to each group, as opposed to a soul group recording 100% of the credit (I'm having trouble with the wording of this, I hope this is clear)
From all the evidence it suggests there are no supernatural beings
Any credit for the actions of humans attributed to supernatural beings assistance is wasted
This is unfortunate on a personal scale and traffic when applied to human endeavours on a more global scale
**************^^^*****^*^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Really hope this is clear, I'm finding this hard to write down

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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3678 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 35 of 652 (694205)
03-23-2013 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
03-22-2013 11:08 PM


Re: Depends on the bylaws of the Chapter of Club Christian
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - can u present any for the god hypothesis? U say ur 99.999999% sure, u must have some damn good stuff.
O. Razor is gonna say that natural explainations are more likely to be true than supernatural ones - I pointed out in a different thread that historically supernatural explanations always fall down compared to natural ones;
Germ Theory VS Demonic Possession
Electricity VS Thor
Cosmology VS a tiny orbiting sun
Etc etc - it goes on and on through out all of human understanding, why would we ever expect a supernatural explanation to win out?

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Replies to this message:
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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3678 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 39 of 652 (694221)
03-23-2013 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
03-23-2013 3:54 AM


Re: Confirmation Bias works both ways
Technically a personal experience is NOT qualifiable as evidence, I'm a realistic guy if I am presented evidence I will submit - I only came to atheism by accident, I began as a Christian and over my teen years I became a goddess worshiper and a magick practitioner (who still revered Jesus). I have seen and made incredible things happen, I summoned spiriits, communed with the dead and witnessed cast spells taking effect. After researching my experiences and trying to understand them I discovered wonderful things about psychology, science and history but nothing in the way of supernatural materials. Further more I'm a semi professional magician now (check out Grim Squeaker on YouTube!) and that has deepened my understanding of how easy the human mind and personal experience is too fool.
Or simply my bias was toward supernatural when I began my research and I found it wanting and I reject ur demonic possession story as evidence (it itself would require e ordinary evidence - and I would question your knowledge of psychology), what else ya got?

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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3678 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 42 of 652 (694228)
03-23-2013 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by purpledawn
03-23-2013 8:25 AM


Re: Morally Bankrupt
If I get u right what your saying is (well partially that some of my assumptions r wrong and maybe I can tackle that later but - )
quote:
Don't blame Christians for what their God does
That's a bit silly. A God is a construct of the people within a certain belief system, even if a god was a real think the people who choose to worship him are responsible fpr their choice in worshipping it and condone it ie. If I worship a serpentheadedgod that demands blood sacrifice one can assume I condone blood sacrifice
Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed broken(misspelled) quote

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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3678 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 47 of 652 (694234)
03-23-2013 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
03-23-2013 10:39 AM


Re: On original sin
quote:
It isn't my view, I'm not inventing this, I'm simply reminding you of everyday facts that you prefer to ignore or deny. It's just a biological fact that we are descended from ancestors that had to fight for their survival and it's a historical fact that human society has become more civilized as it has developed more and better institutions and technologies.
You can ignore these facts and choose to believe instead in the childish mythology of stone age desert tribes if you like, but it doesn't change a single fact.
The biological facts you claim are not facts and the historical facts have nothing to do with the discussion. [/qoute]
Development and growth over time of species, societies and individuals is fact - this isn't an evolution thread so let's not go off on a tangent. Even if u question evolution for some crazy reason u can't question social evolution and that society grows over time
Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quote(you were spelling it wrong)

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